Par Talk

[broomerang]

Couple of thoughts: If bogey or worse should reflect an error that can be corrected by the player, doesn't that mean par had to be set for that player?

I think there are some skills that an expert has that almost no Amateurs have. (Granted, this is only because in disc golf almost everyone who is any good gets pressured to play Open.)

Let's say the skill the expert has is to be able to throw 600 feet. An amateur player who throws his maximum distance at 500 feet has not made an error that can be corrected by the player. So, should it result in a bogey? Or, should par be set based on that 500 foot max throw? Especially if 500 feet is the farthest any Amateur can throw effectively?

Also, why does golf have handicapping?

My stance is that par is set based on the average pros ability. Ams like me will sometimes score over par without making any errors. I cover this in my post and believe it is the correct system.

 

[sidewinder22]

How does scoring separation compare between disc and ball?

 

[Doofenshmirtz]

In Golf the weather is different, the course goes through seasonal changes, your discs . . .

There are no discs in golf. Also, "golf" is not capitalized except at the beginning of a sentence or in a title.

 

[broomerang]

There are no discs in golf. Also, "golf" is not capitalized except at the beginning of a sentence or in a title.

The term golf encompasses both types in my mind: disc and ball.

You can excuse my slight grammar on an Internet forum post opcorn:

 

[gdub58]

Also, why does golf have handicapping?

Golf has handicapping to allow different skill levels to play against each other. If my handicap is 5 and yours is 15, then we could compete in stroke play (I'm giving you 5 a side or 10 for the match), or in match play (you would receive a stroke on the 10 hardest holes determined by the hole handicaps on the scorecard). The handicap is also a good point of reference for tracking improvement in your game.

One could argue that a scratch ball golfer (0 handicap) is equivalent to the 1000-rated disc golfer, especially given that both players should score an even-par round if they play to their ability and the course has appropriate pars. Ball golf courses have ratings for each of their sets of tees, and these ratings can be a few strokes higher or lower than the stated par on the scorecard. Handicaps are based on the course rating rather than par.


On a somewhat related note, I was reading an issue of Golf Digest recently and saw a quote: "Par was the greatest thing to happen to golf. Without it, we would have a lot of 260 yard holes". IMO, this relates to the par issues we are having with disc golf. Most disc golf holes were designed and built based on available land and with the recreational player in mind, with par being an afterthought. And, while tournament hole design is getting better all the time, there are still a number of holes that appear to not be designed with a specific par in mind.

 

[gdub58]

How does scoring separation compare between disc and ball?

Ball golf has much higher score separation. Ball golf handicaps generally range from 0 to 36 (pros will have "plus" handicaps). If we use a rule of thumb that a throw in disc golf is worth 10 ratings points, and we think of a 1000-rated round being equivalent to an even-par round in ball golf, then a "bogey golfer" would be be expected to shoot the equivalent of an 820 round and the 36 handicapper would shoot 640. Breaking 100 (an accomplishment for a lot of golfers, especially on a difficult course) would mean throwing a 730 rated round.

Even on a relatively short par 4, an inexperienced ball golfer could easily shoot +4 or higher if the hole design includes significant hazards (water, deep bunkers, long rough) or fast greens.

 

[sidewinder22]

Ball golf has much higher score separation. Ball golf handicaps generally range from 0 to 36 (pros will have "plus" handicaps). If we use a rule of thumb that a throw in disc golf is worth 10 ratings points, and we think of a 1000-rated round being equivalent to an even-par round in ball golf, then a "bogey golfer" would be be expected to shoot the equivalent of an 820 round and the 36 handicapper would shoot 640. Breaking 100 (an accomplishment for a lot of golfers, especially on a difficult course) would mean throwing a 730 rated round.

Even on a relatively short par 4, an inexperienced ball golfer could easily shoot +4 or higher if the hole design includes significant hazards (water, deep bunkers, long rough) or fast greens.

At 10 rating points/stroke you are talking about a course with SSA in the low 50s. I assume your ball golf numbers are reflecting a par 70+ course. A SSA 70+ course will have about 5 rating points/stroke.

 

[Steve West]

Golf has handicapping to allow different skill levels to play against each other. If my handicap is 5 and yours is 15, then we could compete in stroke play (I'm giving you 5 a side or 10 for the match), or in match play (you would receive a stroke on the 10 hardest holes determined by the hole handicaps on the scorecard).

So, that's like setting par for different skill levels, right?

 

[Doofenshmirtz]

The term golf encompasses both types in my mind: disc and ball.

Both types? Like country and western? Is that dart golf and foot golf? Or golf billiards, foot golf, card golf, word golf, frisbee golf or miniature golf? Or does it maybe even include real golf?

 

[Doofenshmirtz]

One could argue that a scratch ball golfer (0 handicap) is equivalent to the 1000-rated disc golfer, especially given that both players should score an even-par round if they play to their ability and the course has appropriate pars.

There's nothing about the disc golf definition of par that ties it to any player rating. Steve made that up for SOCMOBR. It's just one way that SOCMOBR ignores the definition of par in our sport, a definition that is not the same as the one used in real golf.

 

[broomerang]

Both types? Like country and western? Is that dart golf and foot golf? Or golf billiards, foot golf, card golf, word golf, frisbee golf or miniature golf? Or does it maybe even include real golf?

Yes. All of the above. Golf can be used to refer to all types. You can invent a new version called forum golf and it would still be golf.

 

[DavidSauls]

There's nothing about the disc golf definition of par that ties it to any player rating. Steve made that up for SOCMOBR. It's just one way that SOCMOBR ignores the definition of par in our sport, a definition that is not the same as the one used in real golf.

Nonsense. He's not ignoring the rule. He's interpreting the word "expert" in it, as he's well explained. What interpretation would you use, and how significant a difference would there be?


Or are you falling back on Director's Whim Loophole ("....as determined by the director..."), that par is whatever the director says it is, and ignoring the rest of the definition?

 

[lyleoross]

Perhaps if there were only par 2's, but one of the beauties of golf (any type) is that an "expert" (or the rest of us too...just to a lesser extent) needs to have several 'skills'. And these manifest themselves much better on holes that are at least 3pars. It's not the Remax Long Drive Championships you know, it's golf.

Yes. But that requires that the hole actually requires the player to exercise those skills. A hole is either a good hole or a bad hole. Calling a par 2 hole par 3 doesn't mean a player is going to use greater skill to play it.

 

[Steve West]

There's nothing about the disc golf definition of par that ties it to any player rating. Steve made that up for SOCMOBR. It's just one way that SOCMOBR ignores the definition of par in our sport, a definition that is not the same as the one used in real golf.

The first sentence is true. The definition was created before ratings were invented. So, it also does not preclude using a 1000-rated player as the expert. So, the second sentence is also true. That's not ignoring the definition, that's coming up with a practical interpretation. Now, if you know of a disc golf-official definition of "expert" which would not allow the use of a 1000-rated player, I'll use that definition of expert and stand corrected.

In the meantime, why do you so very much WANT it to be true that I ignored the definition? How would the game be better off if it was true? Or, what is being threatened?

As for the last phrase, if you want anyone to take it seriously, please quote both official definitions and then point out how they are sooooo much different.

 

[Noill]

There's nothing about the disc golf definition of par that ties it to any player rating. Steve made that up for SOCMOBR. It's just one way that SOCMOBR ignores the definition of par in our sport, a definition that is not the same as the one used in real golf.

It's ball golf....not "real golf"

Shheesh

 

[DavidSauls]

It's ball golf....not "real golf"

Shheesh

Or at least.......golf.

 

[DavidSauls]

It's ball golf....not "real golf"

Shheesh

Glad you said that. I thought what I was doing was imaginary golf, which gave me some difficulty in accounting for my knee injuries.

 

[lyleoross]

Or at least.......golf.

We could call it kolven, a stick and ball game played in Scotland before golf? I personally like chole, a game from Belgium that predated golf in Scotland. The nice thing about chole is you take a c and put it on the hole. Of course there is no hole in chole, in physical terms that is.

 

[lyleoross]

First rules known for golf from my research.


You must tee your ball within one club's length of the hole.

Your tee must be on the ground.

You are not to change the ball which you strike off the tee

You are not to remove stones, bones or any break club for the sake of playing your ball, except on the fair green, and that only within a club's length of your ball.

If your ball comes among water, or any watery filth, you are at liberty to take out your ball and bringing it behind the hazard and teeing it, you may play it with any club and allow your adversary a stroke for so getting out your ball.

If your balls be found anywhere touching one another you are to lift the first ball till you play the last.

At holeing you are to play your ball honestly for the hole, and not to play upon your adversary's ball, not lying in your way to the hole.

If you should lose your ball, by its being taken up, or any other way, you are to go back to the spot where you struck last and drop another ball and allow your adversary a stroke for the misfortune.

No man at holeing his ball is to be allowed to mark his way to the hold with his club or anything else.

If a ball be stopp'd by any person, horse or dog, or anything else, the ball so stopp'd must be played where it lyes.

If you draw your club in order to strike and proceed so far in the stroke as to be bringing down your club; if then your club shall break in any way, it is to be accounted a stroke.

He who whose ball lyes farthest from the hole is obliged to play first.

Neither trench, ditch or dyke made for the preservation of the links, nor the Scholar's Holes or the soldier's lines shall be accounted a hazard but the ball is to be taken out, teed and play'd with any iron club.

Thou shalt not call any sport whereist one throws a disc, real golf. This is discus golf and therefore not real.

 

[broomerang]

Glad you said that. I thought what I was doing was imaginary golf, which gave me some difficulty in accounting for my knee injuries.

You need to increase your mental stretching routine to combat these imaginary injuries.