pdga b teir

[schrot42]

I'm curious about the payouts in a tournament. So it was a 40$ entry fee and 20 players in my division. It paid out 5 spots going 50 40 30 20 10 this seems kinda skimpy wondering your guy's opinions. Awesome players pack had a disc hat and a shirt maybe the reason for a small payout?

 

[Glide]

I'm curious about the payouts in a tournament. So it was a 40$ entry fee and 20 players in my division. It paid out 5 spots going 50 40 30 20 10 this seems kinda skimpy wondering your guy's opinions. Awesome players pack had a disc hat and a shirt maybe the reason for a small payout?

What was the tournament director's answer when you asked him or her?

 

[DavidSauls]

I'm curious about the payouts in a tournament. So it was a 40$ entry fee and 20 players in my division. It paid out 5 spots going 50 40 30 20 10 this seems kinda skimpy wondering your guy's opinions. Awesome players pack had a disc hat and a shirt maybe the reason for a small payout?

Glide's answer is right.

But a big players pack means a small payout. A little math, with the assumption your figures are right:

If there were $800 in entry fees and $150 in prize payouts, that leaves $650. $60 fees could be deducted, but we'll assume nothing else, leaving $590.

If the players packs had a retail value of $30, that's $600. A disc ($16), Shirt ($12) and hat ($10) would be more than $30.

Looks good to me.

Though Glide's answer is still right. Ask the TD. But be prepared for the answer that you got most of your entry back in players pack, which left a modest amount for prizes.

 

[schrot42]

I figured it was because of the players pack and i was impressed with that

 

[DavidSauls]

It is a formula that some of us TDs wrestle with---whether to have a more lavish players pack and token payouts, or a minimal payout and significant payouts.

The rules for a B-tier are 100% payout, not including pass-through fees ($3 for a B-tier, plus any state or series fees). The minimum players pack is $10 retail value.

Not knowing the details, but it looks like your TD went with the big players pack route.

 

[mgamache8]

I might be sidetracking a little, but I don't believe that the TD should be making money on the players pack. They shouldn't be losing money, but they should just be breaking even. They should be making money on the tourney itself, not selling players discs and clothes that they don't want or need. But that's just my opinion

 

[paulw]

Tds should be making money whenever they run a tournament. They won't, but they should. That's just my opinion. Years and years of wondering how players never feel the person that's doing all the work shouldn't get paid . . . . I know -- it's a competition among TDs to see who can give away the most . . . seems like a mistake.

 

[jeverett]

I might be sidetracking a little, but I don't believe that the TD should be making money on the players pack. They shouldn't be losing money, but they should just be breaking even. They should be making money on the tourney itself, not selling players discs and clothes that they don't want or need. But that's just my opinion

What would the motivation to host the event in the first place be, in that case? I'm curious..

 

[DavidSauls]

I might be sidetracking a little, but I don't believe that the TD should be making money on the players pack. They shouldn't be losing money, but they should just be breaking even. They should be making money on the tourney itself, not selling players discs and clothes that they don't want or need. But that's just my opinion

It's my opinion that players shouldn't get a players pack to begin with. And I say that as a lifelong Am, and far more often a player than a TD.

But most of the TD's I know don't make money at it, anyway. The margin they get for handling merchandise underwrites the fixed expenses of the event, or goes to the local club, or the course, but not the TD's pocket.

 

[jeverett]

What would the motivation to host the event in the first place be, in that case? I'm curious..

Edit on my last post: It sounds like you're advocating for some method of direct payment for the TD's time/effort.. which would mechanically 'work', but is actually directly in opposition to the function of tournaments: to move merchandise. The PDGA system, quite literally, is designed to support the disc golf manufacturers. Think about it: the only (other than through sponsorships) way a TD currently can make any profit is by using the wholesale/retail differential. They order a bunch of players packs, and/or order merchandise to 'pay' out to amateurs.

 

[DirtyMeathook]

I might be sidetracking a little, but I don't believe that the TD should be making money on the players pack. They shouldn't be losing money, but they should just be breaking even. They should be making money on the tourney itself, not selling players discs and clothes that they don't want or need. But that's just my opinion

So you would rather they just take money out of the prize pool and give you nothing in return? The way I look at it is, the TD needs to generate SOME income, so by providing some merchandise at retail value in exchange for the funds they are taking out, they are doing US a favor.

I have never been a TD, but it is blatantly obvious that they are undervalued and taken for granted in our sport. It is my belief we would have more and better events if TD's profiting from events was not viewed so negatively.

 

[tdschrock1]

One of the underlying topics from this topic hits home with me: How can/should a TD set expectations for an event payout?

I have played events where my division has had ~20 people and ~$45 entry and the payout for first has ranged from $60 to $200+. To me, its just confusing. I agree the TD should have freedom, but the players should also have some idea of what they are competing for.

 

[scarpfish]

I won't delve into it, but there's a reason that Am payout structures aren't entirely transparent to the players. A lot of factors can go into making a payout seemingly generous or paltry. Not all of them are necessarily sinister.

 

[DavidSauls]

I won't delve into it, but there's a reason that Am payout structures aren't entirely transparent to the players. A lot of factors can go into making a payout seemingly generous or paltry. Not all of them are necessarily sinister.

The payouts are transparent at our tournaments. I post the calculations on Saturday night.

The rest of the finances aren't, in part because so few people care. When I was treasurer of the local club, I'd print them out for the club meeting after a tournament, but nobody ever wanted to talk about them.

 

[DavidSauls]

One of the underlying topics from this topic hits home with me: How can/should a TD set expectations for an event payout?

I have played events where my division has had ~20 people and ~$45 entry and the payout for first has ranged from $60 to $200+. To me, its just confusing. I agree the TD should have freedom, but the players should also have some idea of what they are competing for.

I can't speak for all TDs, but in the situations I've been in---with a private course, and as an officer with the local club---the answer is, We're not sure. By which I mean, we're guessing how much we should put into players packs, which determines how much is left to go into prizes (assuming 100% payout). We're guessing what most players will most like, because we want players to come.

 

[tdschrock1]

I can't speak for all TDs, but in the situations I've been in---with a private course, and as an officer with the local club---the answer is, We're not sure. By which I mean, we're guessing how much we should put into players packs, which determines how much is left to go into prizes (assuming 100% payout). We're guessing what most players will most like, because we want players to come.

As a Am player, its a complete puzzle.

How much will the player pack be valued at? Will added cash benefit Ams? Will the cash from my division stay in my division? Are there course/admin/external costs deducted? Will the payout plastic be priced low/fair/high?

At the events that I've played, its tough to figure out unless there is a breakdown provided.

In my opinion, a division winner should get at least 200% entry fee if there is a field of 10+ and no crazy expensive players pack. If the payout is much lower, I hope the players pack is awesome.

 

[mgamache8]

To clarify, I'm not saying the TD(or course or club or whoever benefits, but I'm going to say TD for simplicity) shouldn't be making money. They definitely SHOULD. Hats the whole point of a tournament!! But I'm saying is that either there should be no players pack and the entry fee reduced, or the players pack should be valued at whatever price the TD payed for it. Basically, I don't want to be paying full price for discs that I don't want. I have a limited plastic budget, and I'd rather be using it to buy discs I will use over having a extra amount added to my entry fee to buy the discs I won't use. In my mind, I pay the entry fee to compete in an organized event, not to buy plastic for more than I could regularly($16 champ plastic value when I could buy it for under $13 at hyzerfarm on eBay or used for $8 here). Not sure if I made my first post clear, or if this even helps, but I hope it clears some stuff up

 

[Stable]

As a Am player, its a complete puzzle.

Yeah, when I first started playing PDGA tourneys I used to get real upset about what material return I was getting for my entry fees. I've learned to accept the fact that as an Am I've got to be willing to spend money in order to compete. Better to not get too concerned about it all and just take it how it is.

 

[JC17393]

To clarify, I'm not saying the TD(or course or club or whoever benefits, but I'm going to say TD for simplicity) shouldn't be making money. They definitely SHOULD. Hats the whole point of a tournament!! But I'm saying is that either there should be no players pack and the entry fee reduced, or the players pack should be valued at whatever price the TD payed for it. Basically, I don't want to be paying full price for discs that I don't want. I have a limited plastic budget, and I'd rather be using it to buy discs I will use over having a extra amount added to my entry fee to buy the discs I won't use. In my mind, I pay the entry fee to compete in an organized event, not to buy plastic for more than I could regularly($16 champ plastic value when I could buy it for under $13 at hyzerfarm on eBay or used for $8 here). Not sure if I made my first post clear, or if this even helps, but I hope it clears some stuff up

So basically, if it's a disc or item you want, the TD (or vendor) is welcome to make a profit on it. If it's something you don't want, they shouldn't profit a dime on it. Got it.

Should the TD be surveying the players to find out if they want to player pack item or not, so they know how to value it for each player so they can set their budgets accordingly? Because other than giving a voucher or a gift certificate as a player pack, it's pretty tough to make everyone 100% happy. Player packs are required for B-tiers and up, so just not giving one isn't really an option.

(just an aside, when I say "profit", it doesn't necessarily mean it goes in the TD's pocket. The retail mark-up margin is how most TDs cover expenses and on occasion pad the purses)

 

[mgamache8]

You're right, if it's a disc that I personally want, then I wouldn't have a problem with it. But certainly don't expect the TD to "survey" the players(and yes, I sense your sarcasm). And while no players pack isn't an option, that doesn't mean discs have to be a part of it.