PDGA Major: 2022 PDGA Champions Cup Apr 14-17

[Orioles_Lefty]

If the caddy badges aren't being used exclusively as caddy badges but just used to let a player's people inside the ropes, then it sounds like rules about caddies were used to disqualify a 9yo from being inside the ropes arbitrarily when most everyone was inside the ropes in violation of the rule.

I mean, that's the problem with the "rules are rules" crowd. The entire rule is a joke at this point. I'm not sure why a player needs an agent, manager, significant other, or anyone else right there on demand in the middle of the round.

 

[Nale72]

Players were told that anyone walking with them, regardless of their "support" was a caddy.

This is because the rules say the only non
Player allowed with a group is a caddy.

This was emailed to all players.. it was 100% clear.

Is this a new rule or is it only enforced on some tournaments? Because if I'm not mistaken the rules also say you can only have one caddie at a time. I'm pretty sure I've seen that for example Ricky has had both his girlfriend and his manager following him closely inside the ropes during rounds (not during this Major though). But if that was specific too this tournament, that could be why his girl friend wasn't tagging along inside the ropes? And to not single out Ricky, I'm pretty sure others have also had more than one caddie/friend following the card in other tournaments.

I also agree it's a shame this is the is the by far most talked about subject from this major, that had amazing close finishes in both MPO and FPO, with course records for both MPO and FPO (from what I heard) at a course that most players/spectators love and a tournament that from what I understand was very well run. I also believe that the TD/Officials handled the badly timed "incident" they were presented with in the best way possible, so I put no shade at all that way.

However, because the way this "good faith intervention" by Elaine played out over all, when, how, for what etc, I understand why people are upset and why this is a hot topic. I also think it's a good thing in the long run that this is thoroughly discussed since I hope/believe this has been an eye opener for players, commentators, PDGA, DGPT etc. in regard of the discussions that have been had regarding our rules, how they are (or aren't) followed, how they are/aren't/should be enforced etc.

 

[Nale72]

If I was in her position, I would have let it go; let it play out. I would have told myself that I'm not a part of the tournament and that it is out of my jurisdiction in that regard. Let the TD or players call it. Not only that, but the responsibility of knowing that rule is on Tattar and not on King to tell Tattar about it.

In this case Ian actually tried to talk Elaine out of texting around about the subject and to just let it go in the booth when she brought the subject up between them (off air).

I just wish he had been successful with his intervention attempt. Because then the way this tournament had been covered/talked about had been so much more fun and the players, course, organizers etc. had been in the focus instead, in the way they had deserved.

 

[Flick Maniac]

re: why only one caddie

3.05G of Competition Manual
https://www.pdga.com/rules/competition-manual/305

In PDGA Majors and Elite Series events, the group consists of the players themselves, each player's individual caddie, any active Tournament staff such as leaderboard attendants, Tournament Officials, etc. and any credentialed media ONLY. No other people may be with the playing group. All others (including players who have already finished their round) are considered spectators and must remain in designated spectator areas away from the playing group.

 

[foxdawg10]

Agree 100%. It was an awkward situation and unfortunate it became a thing at all. Under the circumstances I think it was handled as well as could be expected.

I love to see KT playing here and sorry things got a bit twisted, but nobody was trying to undermine her game.

In MOST sports this would never/could never happen. If I take my kid to work, they don't sit in on my meetings.

Just responding - not trolling - I know how you get.

How is the bolded part relevant to the conversation? Age is the factor in this conversation, not that there was a kid in the group. I'd rather have a well behaved 9 year old that an unruly 13 year old. Alot of players have entourages, and I'm not alllowed an entourage at my workplace, lol.

 

[Future_Primitive]

Well said. On the whole you had a great event that is unfortunately being overshadowed by somebody choosing to involve themselves mid-round in a highly contested FPO final round. That involvement very likely influenced the outcome for what appears to be a minor rules issue that absolutely should have been addressed post round.

We SHOULD be talking about the awesome FPO finish between two dgers at the tops of their games. Instead, we have this.

Exactly. The decision altered the final round in some way, how much who knows. The PDGA decided enforcing a spectator rule was more important than the competition on the course and disrupted the flow of the event. Nine holes had already been played might as well just wait until its over to let the MAJOR event finish then speak with Kristin. This was a terrible decision by the PDGA. Either DQ her for breaking the rules or let it play out then address it, instead we have this mess.

Question, so was Kristin given any sort of penalty for the first 9 holes? Was this just a courtesy warning at the nine hole mark? So if all 18 were played she could have just received the courtesy warning after the round and not break into the match to disrupt it? So confused as to why the chose the worst possible decision.

 

[crd 81]

Why do you think your choice/actions are relevant in this situation?

On a technical perspective, my choices and actions are irrelevant to this situation. However, I wasn't responding from that viewpoint.

I was responding to what Cgkdisc said. He wasn't sure what he would have done if he was in King's position. Since it is a hypothetical scenario, I posted what I would have done if I was King's position.

 

[txmxer]

Just responding - not trolling - I know how you get.

How is the bolded part relevant to the conversation? Age is the factor in this conversation, not that there was a kid in the group. I'd rather have a well behaved 9 year old that an unruly 13 year old. Alot of players have entourages, and I'm not alllowed an entourage at my workplace, lol.

What don't you understand?

Entourages should not be allowed at all. IMO, a caddy should be okay IF they are a caddy.

Pretty simple. Age is irrelevant.

 

[txmxer]

On a technical perspective, my choices and actions are irrelevant to this situation. However, I wasn't responding from that viewpoint.

I was responding to what Cgkdisc said. He wasn't sure what he would have done if he was in King's position. Since it is a hypothetical scenario, I posted what I would have done if I was King's position.

Fair point.

I wish she had done so and this wasn't a topic at all.

But imagine IF the worst case happened and someone protested KT? What sh!t show we'd have.

 

[biscoe]

Fair point.

I wish she had done so and this wasn't a topic at all.

But imagine IF the worst case happened and someone protested KT? What sh!t show we'd have.

If another player had protested the outcome would likely have been the same- warning for Tattar and the child would have been made to go behind the ropes. DQ is possible at the TD's discretion but highly unlikely in this case imo.

Val was DQ'ed for her Mom drinking because that particular offense has no option for a warning.

 

[_MTL_]

If the caddy badges aren't being used exclusively as caddy badges but just used to let a player's people inside the ropes, then it sounds like rules about caddies were used to disqualify a 9yo from being inside the ropes arbitrarily when most everyone was inside the ropes in violation of the rule.

Our rule says that a caddie is "someone who carries a bag OR provides other assistance during the round."

What is assistance? Certainly subjective. I could easily argue that having your wife with you just for someone to talk to is providing assistance. I could easily argue that your child walking with you which makes you happy is providing assistance.

The only people with a group at this event was one caddie, staff, volunteers and media (as the rules clarify). There is nothing that says anything about inside the ropes (the rules later clarify that a players not playing is considered a spectator but there's nothing defining where spectators can't go - just that they can't be with the group).

"with the group" obviously is a little subjective, but I think we know the difference between someone standing next to a player and someone 40 feet behind them.

 

[_MTL_]

Exactly. The decision altered the final round in some way, how much who knows. The PDGA decided enforcing a spectator rule was more important than the competition on the course and disrupted the flow of the event. Nine holes had already been played might as well just wait until its over to let the MAJOR event finish then speak with Kristin. This was a terrible decision by the PDGA. Either DQ her for breaking the rules or let it play out then address it, instead we have this mess.

Question, so was Kristin given any sort of penalty for the first 9 holes? Was this just a courtesy warning at the nine hole mark? So if all 18 were played she could have just received the courtesy warning after the round and not break into the match to disrupt it? So confused as to why the chose the worst possible decision.

I'm not sure where this nine hole narratives are coming from. This happened 3 holes into the round.

I disagree fully with your "DQ or nothing" suggestion. We can't ignore the infraction once it's been brought forward (and clearly being broken) and I'm certainly not going to DQ a player over something that did not alter the competition. Also, the rules do not clarify that a DQ is required.

 

[BuiltTooLong]

re: why only one caddie

3.05G of Competition Manual
In PDGA Majors and Elite Series events, the group consists of the players themselves, each player's individual caddie, any active Tournament staff such as leaderboard attendants, Tournament Officials, etc. and any credentialed media ONLY. No other people may be with the playing group. All others (including players who have already finished their round) are considered spectators and must remain in designated spectator areas away from the playing group.]

"Each player's individual caddie"

KT ended up having multiple caddies during the final round when Keiti Tätte carried her bag for the final several holes. I would assume you are able to change caddies as long as you don't have multiple at once?

 

[biscoe]

"Each player's individual caddie"

KT ended up having multiple caddies during the final round when Keiti Tätte carried her bag for the final several holes. I would assume you are able to change caddies as long as you don't have multiple at once?

yep, one at a time.

 

[txmxer]

If another player had protested the outcome would likely have been the same- warning for Tattar and the child would have been made to go behind the ropes. DQ is possible at the TD's discretion but highly unlikely in this case imo.

Val was DQ'ed for her Mom drinking because that particular offense has no option for a warning.

I was thinking about a protest after the round is over--which as I understand it, was part of EK's thinking when she chose to get involved. I realize that probably wouldn't have happened, but other than a DQ, what choice would a TD have in that instance?

 

[txmxer]

Our rule says that a caddie is "someone who carries a bag OR provides other assistance during the round."

What is assistance? Certainly subjective. I could easily argue that having your wife with you just for someone to talk to is providing assistance. I could easily argue that your child walking with you which makes you happy is providing assistance.

The only people with a group at this event was one caddie, staff, volunteers and media (as the rules clarify). There is nothing that says anything about inside the ropes (the rules later clarify that a players not playing is considered a spectator but there's nothing defining where spectators can't go - just that they can't be with the group).

"with the group" obviously is a little subjective, but I think we know the difference between someone standing next to a player and someone 40 feet behind them.

Strictly looking at the professional/DGPT/Major level, it seems like this probably needs to be revisited to avoid future issues. One player, one support person (caddie), that's it. All people in the player area are expected to comply with competition rules. Ari's whoop could be subject to a courtesy violation.

 

[biscoe]

I was thinking about a protest after the round is over--which as I understand it, was part of EK's thinking when she chose to get involved. I realize that probably wouldn't have happened, but other than a DQ, what choice would a TD have in that instance?

Nothing anywhere saying a warning can't be after the fact. IMO the TD would still have the same discretion as during the round to choose between warning and DQ. Would it amount to anything besides an acknowledgement of the issue? Not really, but would stand as a reminder.

 

[foxdawg10]

What don't you understand?

Entourages should not be allowed at all. IMO, a caddy should be okay IF they are a caddy.

Pretty simple. Age is irrelevant.

This raises a bigger question. Look at the scene at World's last year. When JC hit his shot, it reminded me of how baseball and football used to be with fans rushing the field. Only with DG, fans are actually ON the playing field.

 

[foxdawg10]

Strictly looking at the professional/DGPT/Major level, it seems like this probably needs to be revisited to avoid future issues. One player, one support person (caddie), that's it. All people in the player area are expected to comply with competition rules. Ari's whoop could be subject to a courtesy violation.

I agree it's annoying as hell, but what current rule does the whoop violate? You'd be doing us all a favor if you can find one lolol.

 

[txmxer]

I agree it's annoying as hell, but what current rule does the whoop violate? You'd be doing us all a favor if you can find one lolol.

Why are you posts always so weird? What's the point of the lolol?


It's clearly addressed in the competition manual for players

3. Engage in distracting or unsportsmanlike actions such as:
a. Shouting (unless warning someone at risk of being struck by a disc),

and

A caddie must be at least 13 years of age and must comply with the same
Offcial Rules of Disc Golf and Competition Manual their player must follow,
including the dress code, although a caddie need not be a PDGA member nor
Certifed Offcial.