Post-production Hot Stamps are Illegal

[txmxer]

B.4. Removal of manufacturer applied stickers or hot Stamos and/or stamps

 

[chevis]

814. SELECTIVE ENFORCEMENT.

this is the thing. enforcing this rule is virtually impossible... a player could call out a disc they know/think is an aftermarket hot stamp, but unless the td knows for certain it's a post-production hot stamp, they would determine it's legal.
it is fun to know/argue about, but i think this sums up why the rule will likely go unchanged:

...it's probably about oversight. If I'm the PDGA and I can choose between regulating and communicating with disc manufacturers...or I can choose to regulate and communicate with every person on the planet who might put a stamp on a disc...I choose the former. Choosing the latter means I now have to come up with specific regulations about stamping (how thick, how many, how heavy perhaps, etc...in a way that can be enforced). If a manufacturer tries to skirt the intent of the rules, I have a hammer ("Knock it off or we're going to make your discs not certified for play")...and that seems like a lot less of a nightmare than regulating every possible scenario.

There's no advantage gained if Powergrip put the stamp on instead of MVP...but the logistical nightmare it potentially unleashes to allow it might be worth it.

People make the point "how is a consumer supposed to know who put the stamp on it"...imagine if a consumer doesn't have to worry about who put the stamp on it...but now has to worry about how thick the stamp is, how much it weighs, the material, etc.

so your hot stamp better look professional, like it came from a factory

 

[uncle pennybags]

Create a new category of in PDGA Technical standards...Approved Post-Production Modifier and/or Process

Now if the people over at Powergrip (or wherever) are doing something bad the PDGA ban hammer can still be used.

 

[TheOtherBill]

so your hot stamp better look professional, like it came from a factory

Like this big release from Lat64 -

 

[chevis]

Like this big release from Lat64 -

at least that looks like sharpie vs:

 

[dmoore1998]

Create a new category of in PDGA Technical standards...Approved Post-Production Modifier and/or Process

Now if the people over at Powergrip (or wherever) are doing something bad the PDGA ban hammer can still be used.

But then the PDGA has to track who puts on every hot stamp right? And then players themselves have to track which post-production stamping is legal or not.

For example: I'm just a regular guy...I can go open a little side business putting on custom hot stamps. I put them on too large/thick. How is the PDGA going to catch my illegal hot stamps? Let's say they find some stamp that is illegal...then they have to track down who did the custom job. Then they have to threaten to ban-hammer me. If I laugh in their face and they ban any custom stamped disc I do...now every player has to know that before they go to me for custom stamps that they'll be illegal? And if I just open up a new business name doing the same illegal stamps?

That would be an absolute nightmare for everyone involved because the people involved in following the rules have a huge incentive to follow the rules. They RELY on the PDGA to approve their discs. They are also a finite group that the PDGA has a list of and that most players can easily determine if they are legal.

Imagine for a minute that the PDGA did NO disc approval, just published a list of requirements for discs and anyone could use any disc in sanctioned play. And then envision that there is no molding marks, no stamping, just a plastic disc that you as the player have to determine if it is legal. And then imagine that disc-making was as simple as hot-stamping is...it would be chaos.

 

[Rastnav]

But then the PDGA has to track who puts on every hot stamp right? And then players themselves have to track which post-production stamping is legal or not.

For example: I'm just a regular guy...I can go open a little side business putting on custom hot stamps. I put them on too large/thick. How is the PDGA going to catch my illegal hot stamps? Let's say they find some stamp that is illegal...then they have to track down who did the custom job. Then they have to threaten to ban-hammer me. If I laugh in their face and they ban any custom stamped disc I do...now every player has to know that before they go to me for custom stamps that they'll be illegal? And if I just open up a new business name doing the same illegal stamps?

That would be an absolute nightmare for everyone involved because the people involved in following the rules have a huge incentive to follow the rules. They RELY on the PDGA to approve their discs. They are also a finite group that the PDGA has a list of and that most players can easily determine if they are legal.

Imagine for a minute that the PDGA did NO disc approval, just published a list of requirements for discs and anyone could use any disc in sanctioned play. And then envision that there is no molding marks, no stamping, just a plastic disc that you as the player have to determine if it is legal. And then imagine that disc-making was as simple as hot-stamping is...it would be chaos.

Do you think the PDGA currently cares about or monitors or even has any standards about the hot stamps applied to the discs by the manufacturers? You think if Rickie goes into the warehouse and layers 12 different stamps onto his disc anyone is going to notice or care?

It's the very lack of a defined standard around hot stamps, which actually do violate the current rules of disc modification, that causes the issue. That the rules have been interpreted so that those stamps are somehow made legal doesn't actually address anything.

If the rule, whatever it was, actually laid out the criteria by which a decorative hot stamp was deemed legal, there wouldn't be any chaos.

The contention has been made that there aren't many, if any, 3rd part applied stamps. Can anyone tell me whether Flight Factory, Powergrip, and/or other major disc retailers do or do not apply their own hot stamps? I have a memory that Heather Young was shown operating a hot stamp machine in one of the Flight Factory promotions, and I believe they have their own custom hot stamps that are unique to discs bought through them. Is the contention that those stamps are shipped to the manufacturers who then apply them? Or is the contention merely that these only make up a small amount of the discs sold?

 

[txmxer]

https://www.flightfactorydiscs.com/...s/axiom-fission-hex-flight-factory-mini-eagle

These are a custom run of Fission Hex stamped right here at Flight Factory

 

[dmoore1998]

Do you think the PDGA currently cares about or monitors or even has any standards about the hot stamps applied to the discs by the manufacturers? You think if Rickie goes into the warehouse and layers 12 different stamps onto his disc anyone is going to notice or care?

It's the very lack of a defined standard around hot stamps, which actually do violate the current rules of disc modification, that causes the issue. That the rules have been interpreted so that those stamps are somehow made legal doesn't actually address anything.

If the rule, whatever it was, actually laid out the criteria by which a decorative hot stamp was deemed legal, there wouldn't be any chaos.

The contention has been made that there aren't many, if any, 3rd part applied stamps. Can anyone tell me whether Flight Factory, Powergrip, and/or other major disc retailers do or do not apply their own hot stamps? I have a memory that Heather Young was shown operating a hot stamp machine in one of the Flight Factory promotions, and I believe they have their own custom hot stamps that are unique to discs bought through them. Is the contention that those stamps are shipped to the manufacturers who then apply them? Or is the contention merely that these only make up a small amount of the discs sold?

I think if Ricky shows up to a tournament with a ridiculous amount of hot stamp applied to his disc that people will certainly notice, yes. I'm not even sure "12" is the number...it would have to be something to significantly impact the weight, and I'm not sure what the # is but 12 might not be enough. I was thinking more along the lines of not using a traditional hot stamp and instead using a bunch of stamps that carry more weight using some new type of process. Someone figures out a way to apply a more dense metallic stamp, and then applies 12 of those, and significant weight is added.

People notice and post when McBeth changes the color of his putters, I think folks would notice.

 

[seedlings]

Surprised there aren't solid foil hot stamps, giant round circles. 12 of those stacked would make a difference.

 

[biscoe]

The heat and pressure of stamping a disc a dozen times would change the flight characteristics whether the foil itself did or not.

 

[Sewer bill]

The heat and pressure of stamping a disc a dozen times would change the flight characteristics whether the foil itself did or not.

Hadn't considered that but now I want to buy a hot stamp machine to do exactly that.

 

[biscoe]

Hadn't considered that but now I want to buy a hot stamp machine to do exactly that.

You probably have an iron already.

 

[TheOtherBill]

The heat and pressure of stamping a disc a dozen times would change the flight characteristics whether the foil itself did or not.

That's why Ricky triple+ stamped the New Mexico state symbol on the discs he picked out at the Innova factory a few years ago.

You can see one of the FBs at the 5:31 mark:

 

[biscoe]

Also why Innova was marketing discs run through the old full color application equipment (not hot stamping, I know but same theory) as "Flat top" this or that after they were no longer using that full color process.

 

[Countchunkula]

Also why Innova was marketing discs run through the old full color application equipment (not hot stamping, I know but same theory) as "Flat top" this or that after they were no longer using that full color process.

The machine used for the old Ching Rocs. I have one hanging in my garage.

Like you pointed out to Sewer Bill, you don't need industrial grade equipment to flatten a disc. I significantly flattened an old glow DX Roc during the dying process. Since that plastic isn't known for taking dye well, I had it on the hot dye for much longer than I'd done in the past. The result was flatter than my Ching Roc.

Definitely a post production modification, but I haven't played a tournament in a long time.

 

[Rastnav]

Surprised there aren't solid foil hot stamps, giant round circles. 12 of those stacked would make a difference.

This would be sorta "anti-gyro?" I guess if you wanted a big fade at the end, it might do something?

But, absent exceeding weight, there wouldn't be anything to prevent this so long as it was done at the manufacturer's warehouse.

Theoretically, one could somehow apply dimples via this sort of process. I wonder what that would do. Make for a huge amount of lift/glide? What about applying a bunch of stamps all to one side of the disc, making for asymmetry? Would that make the disc less stable or otherwise make for a unique flight in some way?

If you are resting on the idea that hot stamping is OK because it's simply part of manufacturing the approved disc, it would all be fine.

 

[chevis]

The machine used for the old Ching Rocs. I have one hanging in my garage.

Like you pointed out to Sewer Bill, you don't need industrial grade equipment to flatten a disc. I significantly flattened an old glow DX Roc during the dying process. Since that plastic isn't known for taking dye well, I had it on the hot dye for much longer than I'd done in the past. The result was flatter than my Ching Roc.

Definitely a post production modification, but I haven't played a tournament in a long time.

intent. if you told me this story while you were throwing this disc, i could call you on this, but i would not as your intent was to get the plastic to take the dye. now if bill takes his iron & flattens a disc & tells me about it, i would likely tell him that is illegal (intentionally altering flight) & if he throws that disc i will have to call it. like ultimate, this is a (mostly) self-policed sport, so it is up to the players to make the call & follow the rules.

 

[Countchunkula]

intent. if you told me this story while you were throwing this disc, i could call you on this, but i would not as your intent was to get the plastic to take the dye. now if bill takes his iron & flattens a disc & tells me about it, i would likely tell him that is illegal (intentionally altering flight) & if he throws that disc i will have to call it. like ultimate, this is a (mostly) self-policed sport, so it is up to the players to make the call & follow the rules.

Makes sense.

It's probably moot in my case though, I haven't played a pdga event in about a decade. If I was to, I'd just swap the disc in question for a Roc3. The hand feel is close enough and I have a few beat in to a similar flight. The dyed Roc has some sentimental value, so although I bag it, I'm already subbing a Roc3 when there's any risk of disc loss.

 

[roblee]

814. SELECTIVE ENFORCEMENT

Don't take this personally. I think it's funny.

Rules making and enforcement is not an easy task in a "sport" that is much more hobby than profession with limited backing.

Very few people that enable this sport actually profit from it as far as I can tell.

The comment was made in jest.:thmbup:

But I differ in that I think most players profit from dg; the collateral is mostly intrinsic.