Proper penalty

[Owensjef]

The handicaps are only relevant for local leagues, rarely consisting of more than 20-30 people. I've played several hundred tournies for ball golf, and my handicap never did anything, other than attempt to weed out baggers. I gave my pga # with my entry fee, they checked that I was in the correct division, and that was it.
There is one deliberate qualifying tournament that uses handicaps and singles through the pga. No other time will it come into play

There is a local shop in my city that runs singles and doubles tournaments regularly, and will simultaneously use 2 courses with over 200 people. They are one of the fastest at payout and churning results. They do everything by computer. If the TD is playing, and can't trust a single person to assist them, and/or do data entry, there are bigger problems. What if a tornado took out the TDS car? I mean some common sense thinking would have to apply for a smooth operation, with or without a computer.

 

[krupicka]

So use a computer spreadsheet and let it do the math, which makes the individual hole being correct the critical component, not everyone being fatigued mentally and physically, including all the the staff. Human error can be minimal, and the computer input is more time efficient.

I do enter every score for every player at the IOS events (mainly so that they all can be posted online for players to compare themselves to the field). I crank through them extremely fast. I would have no idea if I did the data entry incorrectly at the speed I enter the data if I didn't have the players total on the card. Their total is a double check against the total I have for them. Having a computer to total up cards does not negate the fact that having accurate self-reported totals is required for accuracy.

 

[Owensjef]

I do enter every score for every player at the IOS events (mainly so that they all can be posted online for players to compare themselves to the field). I crank through them extremely fast. I would have no idea if I did the data entry incorrectly at the speed I enter the data if I didn't have the players total on the card. Their total is a double check against the total I have for them. Having a computer to total up cards does not negate the fact that having accurate self-reported totals is required for accuracy.

The double and triple checks from multiple points is a great thing. Again, if the individual scores for each hole are correct, it is accurate and true. They have correctly done the due diligence required. The scores should be compared within the group to alleviate this prior to the data entry, further providing another step of accuracy, and efficiency of the TD. Having the total wrong, but every individual hole correct, as checked by the group, should not penalize someone.

 

[Owensjef]

You're the TD. Take some responsibility to check accuracy. Again, I've run a tournament for 10 years, so I have the experience. My tournament provides a prize for every single hole, another thing to ensure accuracy, along with 100s of donated door prize raffles, arranging dinner and drinks. Also a presentation of the make a wish family to the players and families. Believe me, there are ways to make things easier. Or don't, I don't care

 

[robdeforge]

It may come around after another 10 years of this type of ignorance

I fully believe you have the capacity to add up numbers correctly. Unless you have dyscalculia (yes I googled that) in which case you could/should probably ask at least one other person to look over your score.

It's called personal responsibility :hfive:

 

[Doofenshmirtz]

Having the total wrong, but every individual hole correct, as checked by the group, should not penalize someone.

Yes it should.

 

[JoakimBL]

Everyone now a days have a calculator handy for adding up their own scores after a round. If you think that players being fatigued after the round can cause errors in totaling, the obviously that too can happen for the TD, even if he isn't playing, but having to check and double check 90 players scores. Even if you enter them into a spreadsheet, you still need to check for typing errors. In stead of having tournament staff/TD doing one of at least two checks of the scorecard, it really isn't that much of an ask to have a player total and check his own. If the player isn't bothered enough about his own score being correct, why on earth should anybody else?

 

[roggenb3]

Also, the ignorance was his helpful comment of, don't have ****ty math

That is one of the best pieces of advice you can give a new tourney player: Don't suck at math and you won't be penalized.

If 2 rounds of frolf fatigues you so much you can't add up a score card correctly, you deserve a penalty.

Also, you do realize you could just enter all your scores in like, the computer in your pocket, and it would do the math for you, right? You aren't obligated to add it all in your head.

 

[Steve West]

If 2 rounds of frolf fatigues you so much you can't add up a score card correctly, you deserve a penalty.

Or an ambulance. After the hottest rounds of Am Worlds last year, some of the Grandmasters couldn't concentrate well enough to add.

It is reason to be concerned.

 

[Allurex]

This is why I've started using UDisc even in events that don't do live scoring.

All I have to do is verify the numbers on the card match the numbers I have, and then I know the score in the app is going to be right.

No counting at all.

 

[DiscJunkie]

Anyways, now that we've gotten that fruitless calculating debate out of the way...

Back to the substance of the thread...

Perhaps MTL could enlighten us abut the disciplinary process and unavoidable delays in dealing with a player who admitted turning in a cardmate's intentionally altered score - without supplying personal details, of course.

 

[Doofenshmirtz]

Perhaps MTL could enlighten us abut the disciplinary process and unavoidable delays in dealing with a player who admitted turning in a cardmate's intentionally altered score - without supplying personal details, of course.

It would be interesting to know what, if any delays, affect this sort of thing. The "current disciplinary actions" document has been updated twice since that tournament took place. It seems like there would be no need to update it if the disciplinary committee had not had the opportunity to meet to discuss pending matters. If they have, then what could be the delay in a case where the player admitted cheating?

 

[Doofenshmirtz]

I thought that I would update this now that the PDGA has taken action. The penalty issued was a suspension of less than a year. It is my understanding that the cheater has a lawyer and will be appealing this "harsh" penalty.

 

[_MTL_]

I just saw this thread for the first time.

There is no "statue of limitations" on investigation of discipline issues, so to speak. The process - linked below - only refers to the timing in two situations. When a request has to be submitted (30 days of incident) and when someone can appeal (30 days of decision).

As always, can't confirm or deny I know about the case referenced here nor can I confirm or deny that I understand all of the comments, but it's worth showing the document of the process.

https://www.pdga.com/files/PDGA%20Disciplinary%20Process%20Final%2009232014.pdf

 

[Plankeye]

I thought that I would update this now that the PDGA has taken action. The penalty issued was a suspension of less than a year. It is my understanding that the cheater has a lawyer and will be appealing this "harsh" penalty.

A lawyer...really? Lolz

 

[JC17393]

A lawyer...really? Lolz

Not the first time discipline has been appealed using a lawyer. Probably won't be the last. Would love to be a fly on the wall to hear the arguments being made.

 

[zontar]

a lawyer to throw plastic in the woods. Hmmm.....I'm really TRYING not to be a misanthrope lately......

 

[araytx]

So use a computer spreadsheet and let it do the math, which makes the individual hole being correct the critical component, not everyone being fatigued mentally and physically, including all the the staff. Human error can be minimal, and the computer input is more time efficient.

Everyone now a days have a calculator handy for adding up their own scores after a round. If you think that players being fatigued after the round can cause errors in totaling, the obviously that too can happen for the TD, even if he isn't playing, but having to check and double check 90 players scores. Even if you enter them into a spreadsheet, you still need to check for typing errors. In stead of having tournament staff/TD doing one of at least two checks of the scorecard, it really isn't that much of an ask to have a player total and check his own. If the player isn't bothered enough about his own score being correct, why on earth should anybody else?

Count me in the camp of, "if we're going to suggest the utilization of technology..." -- spreadsheets, computers, calculators, etc. -- "...then the use of the app, UDisc or similar, is the absolute best technologically best option."

 

[mark996]

Count me in the camp of, "if we're going to suggest the utilization of technology..." -- spreadsheets, computers, calculators, etc. -- "...then the use of the app, UDisc or similar, is the absolute best technologically best option."

Off topic sort of, is there anything that says a player can't use uDisc to keep track of score in addition to the card? I always thought about doing that just to keep track of the tee order.

 

[krupicka]

Off topic sort of, is there anything that says a player can't use uDisc to keep track of score in addition to the card? I always thought about doing that just to keep track of the tee order.

I've done that often. It's a great idea. At the end of the round we then compare the electronic to the paper to make sure there are no mistakes.