Reachback Not Important?

[ToddBenji2021]

What is the mechanical reason for the reach back?

I watched the video of HUB talking about how he pulls the disc very slowly to his chest and then speeds everything up at the hit. I tried going very slow from the reach back to my chest and gained like 30 feet on my drive instantly.

So it made me think, what is the purpose of reaching back if it is not adding any power and hypothetically holding many players back from longer distance?

What is wrong with just starting the X-step with your arm bent and the disc at your chest?

 

[RandyC]

Let´s call it a wind up. Why do you wind up a hammer when you want to hit a nail in with one stroke? Why don´t you just place the hammer on top of the nail and press it in ?

 

[Elwood]

That made me laugh


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[seedlings]

What is the mechanical reason for the reach back?

I watched the video of HUB talking about how he pulls the disc very slowly to his chest and then speeds everything up at the hit. I tried going very slow from the reach back to my chest and gained like 30 feet on my drive instantly.

So it made me think, what is the purpose of reaching back if it is not adding any power and hypothetically holding many players back from longer distance?

What is wrong with just starting the X-step with your arm bent and the disc at your chest?

Reach back loads tension between your shoulders and hips. It puts your body in the most powerful position to throw (anything) backhand. In baseball, no backswing with the bat is called a bunt, lol. From chest pocket out is certainly where the acceleration occurs. Reach back maximizes that acceleration.

 

[ToddBenji2021]

Let´s call it a wind up. Why do you wind up a hammer when you want to hit a nail in with one stroke? Why don´t you just place the hammer on top of the nail and press it in ?

Your analogy would be correct if I stated to put your body in place to where your arm has come unhinged to the point of the hit, your hips have started to turn, and weight has shifted and THEN trying to accelerate the disc...

 

[ToddBenji2021]

Reach back loads tension between your shoulders and hips. It puts your body in the most powerful position to throw (anything) backhand. In baseball, no backswing with the bat is called a bunt, lol. From chest pocket out is certainly where the acceleration occurs. Reach back maximizes that acceleration.

I like this thought, but couldn't we load our shoulders and hips with the disc at our chest and elbow bent?

 

[BuiltTooLong]

I don't believe you need to fully extend your arm during reach-back to achieve great distance. If you can hit the power pocket with quick twitch muscles you will be able to put a good move on the disc. Take Alex Geisinger for instance, his reachback his very minimal, but he still explodes for huge distance.

 

[ToddBenji2021]

I don't believe you need to fully extend your arm during reach-back to achieve great distance. If you can hit the power pocket with quick twitch muscles you will be able to put a good move on the disc. Take Alex Geisinger for instance, his reachback his very minimal, but he still explodes for huge distance.

I would love to hear a debate between Alex and Will Schusterick who claims that reaching back very far is CRUCIAL.

 

[BuiltTooLong]

I would love to hear a debate between Alex and Will Schusterick who claims that reaching back very far is CRUCIAL.

They have different body types, which I'm sure factors into it. Will is frail and needs to use his levers like whips more to generate spin. Alex has a hockey background, which aides in his compact explosive movements.

 

[bsammons]

Reach back should be called backswing, or if you wanna use the word reach then it should be reach out. The backswing stretches out your lats, delts and traps (among others) so once the body is posted on the front leg the forward swing has the benefit of elasticity and compression of your muscles.
It also helps put tension between the disc and the body, so once it uncoils your brace and weight dynamically sling the disc instead of just being inefficiently wasted.

 

[Tinkles]

I think the reach back gets you a little momentum into the pocket where the real acceleration begins. Wherever you start that doesn't really matter as long as you are continually increasing acceleration into the hit. How far you extend your arm to me is really just finding your natural rhythm, which will vary person to person.

 

[ToddBenji2021]

They have different body types, which I'm sure factors into it. Will is frail and needs to use his levers like whips more to generate spin. Alex has a hockey background, which aides in his compact explosive movements.

Awesome! Good point. Is Alex a 500+ thrower?

 

[aphilso1]

What is the mechanical reason for the reach back?

It's about acceleration.

Think about dropping a rock from a foot off the ground. Now drop it from the top of a 10 foot ladder. Now drop it from a three story building. Which time did it hit the ground with the most force? The higher drop gives the rock more time to accelerate, which in turn means it hits the ground with more force.

Similar (although not same) concept with a reach back. You are giving your body time to accelerate *into* the power pocket *and out* of the power pocket, which in theory will give you more speed and power at release than if you were only beginning your acceleration at the power pocket.

Now why doesn't that work for you? It works for the rock, so what gives? Well, a rock doesn't have to worry about rounding, or hitting the power pocket, or off axis torque, or any number of other things that can drain your power. Gravity is incredibly efficient when it's the only force acting on a solid object. By comparison, our bodies are not.

I think what you are doing is very good for your current stage of development. Keep it up! Keep throwing from the power pocket until that position feels natural. But you will eventually hit a distance wall, and to break through that wall you will want to start introducing a reach back.

 

[ToddBenji2021]

It's about acceleration.

Think about dropping a rock from a foot off the ground. Now drop it from the top of a 10 foot ladder. Now drop it from a three story building. Which time did it hit the ground with the most force? The higher drop gives the rock more time to accelerate, which in turn means it hits the ground with more force.

Similar (although not same) concept with a reach back. You are giving your body time to accelerate *into* the power pocket *and out* of the power pocket, which in theory will give you more speed and power at release than if you were only beginning your acceleration at the power pocket.

Now why doesn't that work for you? It works for the rock, so what gives? Well, a rock doesn't have to worry about rounding, or hitting the power pocket, or off axis torque, or any number of other things that can drain your power. Gravity is incredibly efficient when it's the only force acting on a solid object. By comparison, our bodies are not.

I think what you are doing is very good for your current stage of development. Keep it up! Keep throwing from the power pocket until that position feels natural. But you will eventually hit a distance wall, and to break through that wall you will want to start introducing a reach back.

I like your advice about sticking with this until I hit a wall. It may just be that it's a timing thing.

 

[aphilso1]

You're confusing lateral acceleration (which is not aided by gravity) and momentum of only gravity (the falling rock). Gravity slightly goes AGAINST the lateral acceleration you are putting on the disc in a reachback.

No, I'm aware of the difference. Hence why I said "Similar (although not same) concept with a reach back" and then went on to explain the difference.

But if a lateral acceleration example makes more sense to you, then let's instead think about two sprinters running a 100m dash. Assume both are equal sprinters, but one has to start from the block while the other gets to start the race at a dead sprint. Who will win? The one that is already up to speed, obviously. Why? Because he has already reaped the benefits of acceleration while the other one has to accelerate to get there.

Acceleration is important in a disc golf throw. The longer the reach back, the easier it is to get up to top speed by the hit. Now granted, a longer reach back also gives you more chances to screw something up. Personally, I almost never do a "full" reach back and instead opt for more of a Seppo Paju control reach back. For my game, that is the optimal blend of power and control.

EDIT: looks like you deleted the comment about confusing lateral and vertical acceleration, so maybe this post is now irrelevant.

 

[ToddBenji2021]

No, I'm aware of the difference. Hence why I said "Similar (although not same) concept with a reach back" and then went on to explain the difference.

But if a lateral acceleration example makes more sense to you, then let's instead think about two sprinters running a 100m dash. Assume both are equal sprinters, but one has to start from the block while the other gets to start the race at a dead sprint. Who will win? The one that is already up to speed, obviously. Why? Because he has already reaped the benefits of acceleration while the other one has to accelerate to get there.

Acceleration is important in a disc golf throw. The longer the reach back, the easier it is to get up to top speed by the hit. Now granted, a longer reach back also gives you more chances to screw something up. Personally, I almost never do a "full" reach back and instead opt for more of a Seppo Paju control reach back. For my game, that is the optimal blend of power and control.

EDIT: looks like you deleted the comment about confusing lateral and vertical acceleration, so maybe this post is now irrelevant.

Yes, that analogy works better. So would you say that my issue is a timing thing since when I actively try to accelarte the disc from the reachback (speed the sprinter up before the block) I usually have a shorter distance drive?

 

[RowingBoats]

I like your advice about sticking with this until I hit a wall. It may just be that it's a timing thing.

I believe some of the talk about acceleration from the back-swing is being overstated. In fact, so far in my learning, one of the absolute most surefire ways to shank a swing is too much acceleration, too soon.

To go back to the hammer example:

No one raises a hammer, and at the apex of the backswing, puts all their force into the swing. They let it slowly fall a bit with gravity, then accelerate the moving object.

The difference in perceived speed before and after the power pocket, so far to me, feels extreme. I still have to be consciously patient in my swings to avoid the early acceleration woes.

 

[aphilso1]

Yes, that analogy works better. So would you say that my issue is a timing thing since when I actively try to accelarte the disc from the reachback (speed the sprinter up before the block) I usually have a shorter distance drive?

That's certainly a potential cause. To know for sure, I'd recommend submitting a form video. Lots of good advice over in this forum: https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=44

In my own experience, if I focus on accelerating it actually makes me tense up and lose power. My swing thoughts, in order are:

1. Footwork -- make sure the plant leg is neutral or slightly closed to the target, not open
2. Reachback -- wide rail, slight elbow bend
3a. Trigger lower body -- left hip/quad area is what starts the motion
3b. Start to pull hand toward chest. This starts at the same time as my lower body trigger and gets my upper body into the power pocket.
4. Hit point over right knee and left of target.

That's it. Everything else is a passive motion, aided by one of those active motions. I will adjust slightly if I'm trying to shape a shot, but even that is more in my posture and how I set up prior to initiating my throw.

 

[aphilso1]

I believe some of the talk about acceleration from the back-swing is being overstated. In fact, so far in my learning, one of the absolute most surefire ways to shank a swing is too much acceleration, too soon.

To go back to the hammer example:

No one raises a hammer, and at the apex of the backswing, puts all their force into the swing. They let it slowly fall a bit with gravity, then accelerate the moving object.

The difference in perceived speed before and after the power pocket, so far to me, feels extreme. I still have to be consciously patient in my swings to avoid the early acceleration woes.

Don't get me wrong -- I'm not trying to encourage someone to focus on accelerating. That's a recipe for disaster. But his initial question was "what is the mechanical reason for a reach back" and acceleration is absolutely the answer. Point is that a reach back gives your body more space and time to accelerate into the hit compared to just starting a throw from the power pocket.

 

[BuiltTooLong]

Awesome! Good point. Is Alex a 500+ thrower?

He stopped touring last year I believe it was, but yes. Only a few years ago he was mentioned up there with Simon, Gibson, and Wiggins.