Reachback Not Important?

[txmxer]

It's about acceleration.

Think about dropping a rock from a foot off the ground. Now drop it from the top of a 10 foot ladder. Now drop it from a three story building. Which time did it hit the ground with the most force? The higher drop gives the rock more time to accelerate, which in turn means it hits the ground with more force.

Similar (although not same) concept with a reach back. You are giving your body time to accelerate *into* the power pocket *and out* of the power pocket, which in theory will give you more speed and power at release than if you were only beginning your acceleration at the power pocket.

Now why doesn't that work for you? It works for the rock, so what gives? Well, a rock doesn't have to worry about rounding, or hitting the power pocket, or off axis torque, or any number of other things that can drain your power. Gravity is incredibly efficient when it's the only force acting on a solid object. By comparison, our bodies are not.

I think what you are doing is very good for your current stage of development. Keep it up! Keep throwing from the power pocket until that position feels natural. But you will eventually hit a distance wall, and to break through that wall you will want to start introducing a reach back.

As I've worked and learned about throwing discs, this exactly what I've concluded.

Early on all my timing was off so the X-step and reach back achieved very little. One of my playing buddies told me to go back to stand still which is what I did. Practiced that a lot, then began a half step and worked forward. Still a work in progress, but building up to a full throwing motion helped me a lot.

The other point I saw was about different body types. Patrick Mahomes can launch a football farther than most human beings with almost no windup and of course with a full throw it goes even farther. But, most of us are not superhuman that way and need to follow the same basic path to get a decent throw.

 

[ToddBenji2021]

As I've worked and learned about throwing discs, this exactly what I've concluded.

Early on all my timing was off so the X-step and reach back achieved very little. One of my playing buddies told me to go back to stand still which is what I did. Practiced that a lot, then began a half step and worked forward. Still a work in progress, but building up to a full throwing motion helped me a lot.

The other point I saw was about different body types. Patrick Mahomes can launch a football farther than most human beings with almost no windup and of course with a full throw it goes even farther. But, most of us are not superhuman that way and need to follow the same basic path to get a decent throw.

The bolded part makes me have so much MORE appreciation for Paul McBeth. He throws right up there with Lizotte and Eagle (who are 6'1" and 6'3" respectively) in terms of distance, and he is only 5'8"

 

[RowingBoats]

The bolded part makes me have so much MORE appreciation for Paul McBeth. He throws right up there with Lizotte and Eagle (who are 6'1" and 6'3" respectively) in terms of distance, and he is only 5'8"

I've seen Paul palming a disc casually. The man has some non-standard levers and probably a decent positive ape-index.

 

[ballgolfconvert]

Reach back should be called backswing, or if you wanna use the word reach then it should be reach out. The backswing stretches out your lats, delts and traps (among others) so once the body is posted on the front leg the forward swing has the benefit of elasticity and compression of your muscles.
It also helps put tension between the disc and the body, so once it uncoils your brace and weight dynamically sling the disc instead of just being inefficiently wasted.

Nice post! What i think explains the differences in the pros is body type. Someone with tight muscles may not need as much extension on the backswing in order to prime those muscles, while someone with a ton of elasticity may need to go all the way back. Someone going too far back with tight muscles is likely to get thrown off balance.

 

[ToddBenji2021]

Nice post! What i think explains the differences in the pros is body type. Someone with tight muscles may not need as much extension on the backswing in order to prime those muscles, while someone with a ton of elasticity may need to go all the way back. Someone going too far back with tight muscles is likely to get thrown off balance.

This post has me thinking. I have been a powerlifter for a while, and pulling is my strength. I can row the entire stack for reps on most cable machines and can deadlift 500lbs (when I am in shape - I have currently been out of the gym for 9 months). I'm wondering if reaching back IS hindering me due to muscle mass/tightness...

 

[DiscFifty]

What is wrong with just starting the X-step with your arm bent and the disc at your chest?

The "bent elbow" craze a while back seemed to have alot of players doing something very similar. Basically you want your overall speed/power at or near zero at this exact moment anyway to prepare for the explosive whip about to happen, so it might be interesting to do some field work to compare throws with zero reach back. hmm... I think for stand still throws, approaches, etc, I'm doing something very close to this, will be interesting to see how it pans out to drives. Thanks for the post!

 

[ToddBenji2021]

The "bent elbow" craze a while back seemed to have alot of players doing something very similar. Basically you want your overall speed/power at or near zero at this exact moment anyway to prepare for the explosive whip about to happen, so it might be interesting to do some field work to compare throws with zero reach back. hmm... I think for stand still throws, approaches, etc, I'm doing something very close to this, will be interesting to see how it pans out to drives. Thanks for the post!

I'll let yall know how it turns out AND try to get some slo mo video

 

[dbstrat]

Don't get me wrong -- I'm not trying to encourage someone to focus on accelerating. That's a recipe for disaster. But his initial question was "what is the mechanical reason for a reach back" and acceleration is absolutely the answer. Point is that a reach back gives your body more space and time to accelerate into the hit compared to just starting a throw from the power pocket.

Good point. I think it's important to note that there is definitely such a thing as too much reach back. I execute better when I think about the backswing in terms of shoulder turn rather than reach back. Consciously reaching back for me can result in too big a backswing which throws off my balance.

 

[navel]

Tendon bounce

If you are throwing something for max power you want your tendons to stretch and then bounce back. They are very explosive. You never throw a ball from a static reachback. You never hit a golf ball from a static reachback. You never kick a football from a static reachback... And so on..

If we are talking about pounding a nail with a hammer:
You get much more power by moving up from the nail then accelerating back down towards it. Even if you move the same distance down towards the nail with your hammer but starting from max height.

So why are some pros skipping the full reach back?
They aren't. Some pros minimize the tendon bounce in the elbow and some minmize it in other parts of the body. But they still reach back hips, core, shoulders, etc.
You can get some tendon bounce from a bent arm too if you muscle up further down in the kinetic chain and accelerate "the whip".

 

[navel]

Remeber that the reach back isn't about getting your disc as far away behind you as possible. It's about getting the feeling of being twisted up and ready to release forward (not around). Do the door frame drill and feel the difference in:
1. Keeping the elbow bent.
2. Not turning your shoulders back.
3. Not turning the hips.

 

[seedlings]

I've seen Paul palming a disc casually. The man has some non-standard levers and probably a decent positive ape-index.

Sometimes they turn the disc upside down and spread fingers out so the tips hit the inside rim. Looks like palming, but isn't. That may or may not be what you saw. I'd check out a video if you see it again.

 

[sidewinder22]

I've seen Paul palming a disc casually. The man has some non-standard levers and probably a decent positive ape-index.

Sometimes they turn the disc upside down and spread fingers out so the tips hit the inside rim. Looks like palming, but isn't. That may or may not be what you saw. I'd check out a video if you see it again.

 

[sidewinder22]

Remeber that the reach back isn't about getting your disc as far away behind you as possible. It's about getting the feeling of being twisted up and ready to release forward (not around). Do the door frame drill and feel the difference in:
1. Keeping the elbow bent.
2. Not turning your shoulders back.
3. Not turning the hips.

I think it is about getting the disc as far away as possible from your center of gravity. Most people try to reachback as far away as possible from the rear foot instead of CoG which has the opposite effect being tipped over behind the rear foot vs leveraged in front of it.

You can do a version of door frame drill with the elbow bent but you need a pole or something to wrap the lower arm around the pole, so the shoulder still gets pulled taut the same. So the elbow is pulled further away from CoG instead of disc.

 

[seedlings]

Yea(, that's nuts. My hands are embarrassing.

 

[sidewinder22]

Yea(, that's nuts. My hands are embarrassing.

I can't tell, but it might even be a Roc3 which would be even crazier than driver.

 

[tomsdiscs]

The reach-back provides some incremental momentum, that is of benefit when paired with the correct mechanics/timing/momentum from the ground up (feet-hips-shoulders).

But if the ground up mechanics/timing/momentum is off, the reach-back is of little value.

It is better to have the ground up mechanics/timing/momentum correct without a reach-back, than a reach-back without good ground up mechanics/timing/momentum.

This becomes pretty apparent if you follow Stokely's recent video where he reminds us to put our right (RHBH) foot down before unwinding the hips and shoulders.

If your distance is way off, remember Stokely's advice - plant then unwind, and your momentum will click back on.

Remember - no hard planting, not needed, not good for your meniscus in your knee - gentle plant, easy rotation.

Then add Ezra's Hit-Box, which reminds us to not collapse our right arm/elbow in - so many instructional videos say to keep the disc in close to the chest, but that leads to problems when you let your right elbow collapse in and you have a short Tyrannosaurus Rex arm trying to turn on the disc. Get that Hit-Box right, pull through without collapsing your right arm/elbow, recognize the right hand/foreman rotates around the elbow, and it all gets a lot easier from there.

Even technical control shots get a lot easier when you do this - less effort, more results - 285 feet with a midrange is a soft toss...

Add some good putting to that and everybody will be talking about your hands.

 

[DiscFifty]

Yea(, that's nuts. My hands are embarrassing.

ruh roh...running to grab a driver and a roc3....wow...not even close. Might explain some things in regards to my grip. hmm....

 

[navel]

I think it is about getting the disc as far away as possible from your center of gravity. Most people try to reachback as far away as possible from the rear foot instead of CoG which has the opposite effect being tipped over behind the rear foot vs leveraged in front of it.

You can do a version of door frame drill with the elbow bent but you need a pole or something to wrap the lower arm around the pole, so the shoulder still gets pulled taut the same. So the elbow is pulled further away from CoG instead of disc.

Interesting. But wouldn't you get further away from CoG if you tip over like a banana backwards then? Or if you close your stance so much from target that you are standing totally backwards (hips open 180 degrees from target) and with the shoulder angle at 180 degrees away? I see what you are saying, but I also see a few loopholes in that statement. I don't know if I'm correct though. It could certainly be a way to think about it, but only if you already are positioned in the correct way and don't go 100% for it with 180 degree shoulder angle and bending over away from the target.

Door frame drill: Isn't it possible to just lock the elbow a bit if you can do it without stiffening up? Like a tight spring? As you do with your wrist when throwing. A.k.a "The Feldberg Door Frame"?

 

[sidewinder22]

Interesting. But wouldn't you get further away from CoG if you tip over like a banana backwards then? Or if you close your stance so much from target that you are standing totally backwards (hips open 180 degrees from target) and with the shoulder angle at 180 degrees away? I see what you are saying, but I also see a few loopholes in that statement. I don't know if I'm correct though. It could certainly be a way to think about it, but only if you already are positioned in the correct way and don't go 100% for it with 180 degree shoulder angle and bending over away from the target.

Door frame drill: Isn't it possible to just lock the elbow a bit if you can do it without stiffening up? Like a tight spring? As you do with your wrist when throwing. A.k.a "The Feldberg Door Frame"?

Mmm, having trouble with terminology fuzz or trying to picture what you are describing.

I think you are talking about tilting, rather than tipping balance. I think banana posture would refer to spine flexion rather than extension, although "banana backwards" I think could mean reverse C posture/spine extension. The spine should be pulled into flexion in door frame drill with back muscles being pulled/loaded back, if spine is extended then you are either trying to use your back muscles and/or collapsing down in bad reverse C or S posture. I think you can tilt as much as possible as long as you are not tipped off balance behind the rear leg or over front leg, or collapsing posture, or losing leverage. How much you tilt will vary the "reachback and hit points", so the more you tilt, the more upward the trajectory and more downward the max reachback point away from CoG. So in Door Frame Drill, the lower the hand position, the more you should be tilted back against/inside the rear leg, but the door frame would ideally be a circle around you rather than straight up/down, which is why in door frame your hand should ideally be at CoG height because the door frame is flat. Things start getting off if your hand is too high or too low in door frame drill.

The arm is pulled taut and spring loaded in door frame drill. I think the different action you are talking about would be after releasing from door frame.

TK's Door Frame on this shot is almost tilted parallel to the ground as his spine is almost tilted perpendicular to ground.


I think Will loses some lower body efficiency, leverage and acceleration with the backward rear foot/stance, but maybe makes up for it with more shoulder rotation or tries to.

 

[navel]

Mmm, having trouble with terminology fuzz or trying to picture what you are describing.

I think you are talking about tilting, rather than tipping balance. I think banana posture would refer to spine flexion rather than extension, although "banana backwards" I think could mean reverse C posture/spine extension. The spine should be pulled into flexion in door frame drill with back muscles being pulled/loaded back, if spine is extended then you are either trying to use your back muscles and/or collapsing down in bad reverse C or S posture. I think you can tilt as much as possible as long as you are not tipped off balance behind the rear leg or over front leg, or collapsing posture, or losing leverage. How much you tilt will vary the "reachback and hit points", so the more you tilt, the more upward the trajectory and more downward the max reachback point away from CoG. So in Door Frame Drill, the lower the hand position, the more you should be tilted back against/inside the rear leg, but the door frame would ideally be a circle around you rather than straight up/down, which is why in door frame your hand should ideally be at CoG height because the door frame is flat. Things start getting off if your hand is too high or too low in door frame drill.

The arm is pulled taut and spring loaded in door frame drill. I think the different action you are talking about would be after releasing from door frame.

TK's Door Frame on this shot is almost tilted parallel to the ground as his spine is almost tilted perpendicular to ground.


I think Will loses some lower body efficiency, leverage and acceleration with the backward rear foot/stance, but maybe makes up for it with more shoulder rotation or tries to.

Great answer. As english isn't my first language it will take me some time to process everything you are saying, but I get the general picture. Thanks for elaborating the door frame drill a bit too.

What I meant was that there could be all kinds of unloaded and unathletic positions in the reachback that has the disc further away from CoG than an effective reachback. Isn't that so? Leaning, unloaded hips, C or S posture etc.
In the bottom pic of Wil his disc is really far back from CoG but that position seems over exaggerated? I would think that he rest of the body has to be prioritized first. Too much focus on reaching as far as you can? So he has a good disc-to-CoG distance, but it interfere with his feet position (as you were saying too?).

Maybe it's just different ways to think about it? If you would just switch your saying to "CoG has to be pulled as far away from the disc as possible" instead of "disc has to be reached back as far away from CoG as possible" it makes more sense to me, even though the result may look almost the same. The difference between pulling the string on bow and string or instead pushing the bow forward.

Regarding what I said about the door frame drill with bent elbow. What would happen if for some reason couldn't bend my elbow? If it was always stuck at 135 degrees? Couldn't it still be pulled taut? And couldn't the same result be done with just flexing the right muscles and keeping the arm "stiff"? You would have to adjust your position of course.