Roc vs. Buzzz, to end all wars

[t i m]

(I can't believe I'm chiming in on a Roc vs. Buzz thread)...

But I feel like Cfair needs a defense. Anyone quoting Blake mindlessly is or as gospel needs some help. But I thought Cfair did a good job citing how his own experience compared to Blake's assessment. In this case, agreeing because of independent assessment. And as someone who has been playing almost 14 years, and who's had at least one Buzz and one Roc in my bag almost every round I've played since the Buzz was released, I feel I can comment independently, based on my own experience.

And I think the problem in this is not that Blake is right or wrong in his assessment, it's that some people may not use his same criteria for an ideal midrange. Look back at the original criteria offered:

4 things you want from a midrange and driving putter:
1. high speed stable: it shouldn't turn.
2. predictable low speed fade without being overbearing: it should fade every time, but by a reasonable amount.
3. range control. it shouldn't be difficult to manipulate the disc's range.
4. carry. given the speed range of "midrange" discs how far do the discs carry. note: i separate this from glide because floaty understable discs often have the best glide but terrible "carry."

If you're criteria for what you want in a midrange is different from the criteria proposed here, then you end up arguing about apples and oranges. If I were going to define an ideal midrange, I'd probably use slightly different criteria. I'd say the four things that matter most to me on a midrange are: 1)ability to hold a line, 2)range control 3) wind performance 4) carry.

Those criteria are different than Blake's criteria, so I'd get different scoring and different results of which disc ranked higher in my criteria.

I'm guessing that most of the debate about Roc vs. Buzz is because people have their own criteria of what makes an ideal midrange disc. And if your criteria is different from someone else's criteria, then you can't really have a debate because you are both working from different premises. It's like saying: "Mayonnaise is better on sandwiches!" and someone arguing that "NO!, Mustard is better on sandwiches!" when in reality, the mayonnaise guy is talking about turkey sandwiches and the mustard guy is talking about roast beef sandwiches... maybe if they realized they were talking about different sandwiches -- different criteria for "better" -- they'd be able to have a better discussion.

So I advise people to preface their "Roc/Buzz is better" arguments with a little context on what your ideal midrange is... and why disc X fits that criteria better than disc Y.

 

[t i m]

A last point -- which may have been covered before in the 25 pages of this thread -- is that it's really hard to discuss Roc vs. Buzz when there is so much difference in the plastics and toolings available.

Really, people seem to be treating this as if there were some archetypical Platonic ideal form for each of the Roc and Buzz. In reality, there have been dozens of types of Buzz molds/plastic combinations.

Do you want a DX/Special Blend/Super Roc/Star/Champion/CE/ECO/RX/Glow/Champ Glow/8x/9x/10x/11x/12x/Flat-top/Ching-stamped Roc? Do you want a San Marino/Ontario/Racho mold? How many rings on the underside of that old disc? They fly differently and break in differently; there is no such thing as an archetypical Roc.

I don't know all the Buzz variations as well as the Roc variations -- and there are a lot less since it hasn't been in production nearly as long -- but there are still quite a few. Base plastic/Elite-X/Sparkle/FLX/Z/Crystal-Z/First-run/Holiday/etc... I'm sure more I can't think of.

The sheer variation makes it hard to have a serious Roc vs. Buzz discussion.

Of course, the beauty of it for most all of us -- except for those few people sponsored by a major disc manufacturer (no pity wasted on them) -- is that we can use BOTH. We don't have to decide.

My primary midranges are a beaten in FLX Buzz for straight and anhyzer shots, and a lightly-beat Super Roc for better wind-penetration, straight flicks and hyzer backhands. It's the best of both worlds.

 

[garublador]

Anyone quoting Blake mindlessly is or as gospel needs some help.

There's the assumption that people mindlessly follow him, but that's rarely true. Why would anyone mindlessly follow an intermediate player who doesn't even really play much anymore? People follow him and repeat stuff he says because we've compared it to other options and found that he's right. His methodology on how to examine, interpret and find the "best" way to do things in the DG world is sound. He's even willing to change if proven wrong. It's not that we're citing him because he's Blake, it's that we're citing him because he's right. If anyone want to ignore his advice, and all of us that have found it to be, by far the most effective, they're welcome to. Just know that most of us who repeat what he says have been down that same road already but ended up discovering that he was right all along. Again, it's really about his method of evaluating technique and equipment.

Also keep in mind that a lot of what he says aren't unique ideas he came up with. Many of them are ideas he's developed by talking with some of the best players and coaches. You aren't just saying that he doesn't know what he's talking about, you're also saying that Dave Mac, Dave D. and however many other pros he's had help him don't know what they're talking about, either.

 

[smyith]

Also keep in mind that a lot of what he says aren't unique ideas he came up with. Many of them are ideas he's developed by talking with some of the best players and coaches. You aren't just saying that he doesn't know what he's talking about, you're also saying that Dave Mac, Dave D. and however many other pros he's had help him don't know what they're talking about, either.

who ever said he doesn't know what hes talking about? and yes, most ppl mindless quote him. a few handful of people are able to actually 'defend' what he has said. he has done alot for advancing the "art" of disc knowledge. but to say things like "Blake said these are the best so thats it" is ludicrous. and i see it all day long by the majority of his 'acolytes.'

One of the problems i have with Cfair's post of Blakes reasoning:
Where is the quantitative data that backs his claims up? to me it appears as Blake's interpretation of those discs flight and uses. so its mostly qualitative data. all that proves to me is that for Blake's purposes the Roc is more versatile.
BTW - Grading systems are subjective Cfair, especially when not backed with numbers...

FYI - in all my posts on the subject ive said i think the Roc is more versatile than the Buzzz.

 

[cfair]

cfair,
ive been reading Blakes post since before you knew what DG was. ive had many forum conversations with him and others. yes he knows alot about disc, but so many of you take his word as Law and if anyone says otherwise then their stupid or dont know what their talking about. its getting to the point of ridiculous. im gonna start calling you guys a Cult.

I'm going to do this. I'm going to say you're right. You have a lot more experience than me and there is a level of "following" when it comes to what Blake has to say on the matters of DG. I'm not going to say how much there is but I will say there is a level of it. I want to reinforce this idea by summing up a part of what garu said. The idea that Blake has worked with a lot of Disc Golf top brass, which in some people's minds (those you would consider the cult) holds a lot of weight. So I'm going to back off on this because frankly. They're discs and initially I was being one part serious, one part playful, and one part devil's advocate so now I'll do the best I can to take the high road on this and gracefully recede.

Not because I think anyone of us is right or any other stuff like that. But for the sake of civility and caring a little more about you than a discussion about discs. If we really want to keep talking about this or a serious level and you'd like explanations for my thoughts I would be happy to answer or continue in calmer conversation.

Peace fa now ya'll.

 

[jtbingster]

Well, I'm probably gonna get some bad rep for this, but I've decided to try out Rocs. I love my Buzzzes, and I'm not saying that Rocs are definitely going to take their places, but I'm gonna try 'em out. The only thing I don't like about Buzzzes is the fact that I have to get an overstable complement and probably an understable complement, so the idea of having several Rocs in stages of wear appeals to me. I also feel like there's a gap (small, but still there) between my Wizards and Buzzzes that I don't like overpowering my Wizards for, and I don't really like underpowering my Buzzzes. I'm hoping that Rocs would fill both the shorter mid/longer approach slot and also the driving mid slot. So here goes! Next time there's a KC Roc at PIAS I like the look of, I'm going to pick it up (and maybe a DX Roc too).

I'm also remembering how much I liked my SM Star Roc.

I'll post in here after a while to tell you guys what I think!

 

[woodstock]

I like the way the Buzzz breaks in.

 

[Safetyboy]

Buzzz hands down is the best midrange. Breaks in good and will hold any line you put it on.

 

[NOStheBOSS]

I don't really have any criteria like you guys are discussing, simply put, I love the way rocs feel and hate the way buzzzes feel. I have a beat dx roc for straight/turnover shots, a newer dx roc for slightly more stable shots, and a brand new max weight kc pro roc for even more stable shots. I really don't know of a shot under 300' I can't throw with one of my 3 rocs. I have friends that swear by the buzzz, but it's just not for me

 

[ian.]

The only thing I don't like about Buzzzes is the fact that I have to get an overstable complement and probably an understable complement, so the idea of having several Rocs in stages of wear appeals to me.

you could go.. FLX/Elite-Z/Glo Buzzz and get everything covered..but if you havent worked with the roc much id get one just because..i went from throwing 4 rocs in differenet stages of wear to using.. worn z/CryZtal/Max weight flat Z-Buzzz and my mid game has never been better and I havent ran into a shot they coudlnt cover yet..but the buzzz just feels better in my hand

 

[1978]

Is this where I post about how great glow coyotes are?

 

[sgamerp]

Is this where I post about how great glow coyotes are?

has it been drinking?

 

[KaosDiscGolf]

Learned to play the game with a Roc, and now I throw the Buzzz...

I throw the Buzzz for long flat shots, and thats it.
I throw the Wasp for hyzers and the Meteor for anhyzers.

I'm also playing around with the Hornet and Drone, but I'm not sure theres anything I can do with those that I cant already do with the 3 I use now!

 

[surgeflx87]

Learned to play the game with a Roc, and now I throw the Buzzz...

I throw the Buzzz for long flat shots, and thats it.
I throw the Wasp for hyzers and the Meteor for anhyzers.

I'm also playing around with the Hornet and Drone, but I'm not sure theres anything I can do with those that I cant already do with the 3 I use now!

this is why i think the roc is better. I can do everything you just described with my rocs. I dont need tons of different mid molds. Although i do use the fuse for alot of shots now also. The roc is just a more well rounded disc imho.

 

[KaosDiscGolf]

I like having different discs for different shots.

 

[Mr. America]

To me, I don't really see the difference in carrying 9,000 Rocs vs. carrying several different other mids. I always carry a Wasp, Buzzz and Meteor. Actually I can think of a huge advantage (at least to me). The discs fly like I want relatively straight off the shelf, and they stay that way. I don't have to be like ok, which Roc is my fade left, but not to far left roc, or which roc is my roc that turns over, but still fades back etc. etc. That seems highly touchy to me, but evidently people think it works.

 

[rusch_bag]

MD2 has been taking over my bag. Speed of a buzzz but almost as workable as a roc. I got all of my mid shots covered with just the one mold.

 

[Easy Tigur]

MD2 has been taking over my bag. Speed of a buzzz but almost as workable as a roc. I got all of my mid shots covered with just the one mold.

Same, it is currently my only mid that I use with any regularity (still keep a Roc for water shots and a Wasp for forehand/utility shots)

 

[i_throw_bricks]

I throw with a roc and a shark. Both are beat to heck. Bought the shark new and liked it new, but found the roc. How does the new roc compare to the beat roc?

 

[surgeflx87]

To me, I don't really see the difference in carrying 9,000 Rocs vs. carrying several different other mids. I always carry a Wasp, Buzzz and Meteor. Actually I can think of a huge advantage (at least to me). The discs fly like I want relatively straight off the shelf, and they stay that way. I don't have to be like ok, which Roc is my fade left, but not to far left roc, or which roc is my roc that turns over, but still fades back etc. etc. That seems highly touchy to me, but evidently people think it works.

I dont have to think hmmm which roc does exactly that, i just know. Plus i can basically do the same thing with all my rocs. Like i said i mainly use a fuse for turnovers or anhyzers. So therefore i can use a roc to go straight, hyzer, spike hyzer, roller, hyzer flip. Whichever one i need. Besides a beat to **** one ill use for turnovers sometimes. This is all an opinion to each his own like i said before. I just dont find the need to figure out how to work several different molds, when all my shots can be covered by one if needed.