I throw them in tailwinds almost exclusively and even then with a good amount of hyzer. The VIP plastic will usually always come out at the end if given enough height. The TP plastic is a little more understable. Since he said for a beginner though there should be no problem getting an S curve out of it and would teach him good form since any OAT or wrist roll will likely turn his throw into a quick roller. Bigger difference in a valkyrie but I think they are good for it as well. Just a whole different disc from a pro valk and a champ valk. I've seen many beginners try to use a new champ valk and get frustrated that it won't even flip to flat for them.