Should Las Vegas be allowed to host the Western Region National Tour event?

[allinpflop]

So again I ask, why have a national tour at all?

If the tour does not aspire to be a spectator friendly showcase of the best disc golf in the world, then it's just a way to hand out an extra trophy at the end of the year....

From a touring pros perspective (not that I am one just guessing) what more are they getting from an nt? More added cash and likely a larger field (more dead money) so that's the reason for the tourney, and for the Ams (like me) a fun destination event to play in that usually has the best players pack and largest field at usually an amazing course(s). None of these have anything to do with spectators.

 

[bradharris]

From a touring pros perspective (not that I am one just guessing) what more are they getting from an nt? More added cash and likely a larger field (more dead money) so that's the reason for the tourney, and for the Ams (like me) a fun destination event to play in that usually has the best players pack and largest field at usually an amazing course(s). None of these have anything to do with spectators.

How is that different than a well run A-Tier, like say, the GCC?

My point is that A-Tiers should be those destination events that everyone wants to play. NT events should be showcases that everyone wants to watch. Obviously the spectator base isn't all that strong right now, but you can't build a spectator base without a product to watch. And if we want the best chance to build that following, we need the absolute best spectator events to comprise the National Tour.

 

[allinpflop]

Maybe because despite the growth, we haven't yet crossed the magical threshold which will trigger the first big sponsor to jump on board? Just because we haven't gotten there yet doesn't mean we should stop trying to be prepared when we do.

When? I will let you in on a secret disc golf is right on the cusp of mainstream success just like it was 5 years ago 10 years ago 20 years ago.......that is the story everyone likes to keep telling but it isn't going to happen.....people play disc golf not watch it and even if another 20 million play and another 5k courses go in during the next 5 years it will still be a fringe sport mocked and misunderstood by most.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Why throw tons of money and resources towards so few spectators when all are in such short supply? Disc golf does not translate to spectators....even as the numbers of participants swells no company has stepped forward in any serious manner for sponsorship....ask yourself why that is.

I don't personally disagree and say so from time to time. However, the PDGA is a membership organization and enough members consistently indicate they want the PDGA to try to ramp up the professional side of the sport and spectators even if it's not working very fast. The volunteer TDs and manufacturers also want the PDGA to try. So if you're going to make the effort, do it well.

Personally, I think blue level courses are more appropriate for more communities except for a few where they could finally justify a gold level course. But if that's what they want and they are paying the bills, then I'll design a gold if they have the room. However, I will usually get them to include white level tees so at least the bulk of the local players in that community also have a less brutal and potentially more fun layout to play.

 

[JC17393]

When? I will let you in on a secret disc golf is right on the cusp of mainstream success just like it was 5 years ago 10 years ago 20 years ago.......that is the story everyone likes to keep telling but it isn't going to happen.....people play disc golf not watch it and even if another 20 million play and another 5k courses go in during the next 5 years it will still be a fringe sport mocked and misunderstood by most.

There needs to be a deadline? Who cares if it is 5 years or 10 years or 50 years in the future? If people want to see it happen some day, whenever someday is, what's it to you if they keep trying to make it happen?

I'll let you in on a secret. There are plenty of us who've been in the game longer than you who have seen the growth and believe in the growth who don't have the pie in the sky viewpoint that the breakthrough is "right around the corner". And just because it isn't "right around the corner" doesn't mean it isn't coming or won't ever come.

 

[allinpflop]

The time line was just in reference to people who keep bring up the idea that we are close to mainstream success with spectators..I argue we are no closer now than we were 20 years ago. If you are so sure it's going to happen how will it happen? What is the magic formula and why hasn't it happened now that the sport experiences such growth with participants?



QUOTE=JC17393;2650151]There needs to be a deadline? Who cares if it is 5 years or 10 years or 50 years in the future? If people want to see it happen some day, whenever someday is, what's it to you if they keep trying to make it happen?

I'll let you in on a secret. There are plenty of us who've been in the game longer than you who have seen the growth and believe in the growth who don't have the pie in the sky viewpoint that the breakthrough is "right around the corner". And just because it isn't "right around the corner" doesn't mean it isn't coming or won't ever come.[/QUOTE]

 

[damagedLIVER]

I care about disc golf....what I was saying is no matter how you present it, how much money is on the line it will never be a spectator sport except to this tiny tiny group of people.

So there are no spectators in this photo? Those people are all players waiting to tee off? Oh, that is just a tiny, tiny group of nerds from DGCR:doh:

 

[Emoney]

First of all, the course at sunset and the Vista course are apples and oranges. They are both lame and use what They have in the landscape. Vista is flat hallway aka wash and sunset is def flat and kind of out of place and not scenic either. Fountain hills LOOKS special but the course is not, but is perfect to showcase and spectate disc golf. The main dif to me is LOCATION LOCATION LOCATION. What do u do after ur morning round of dg in Arizona? Have a few brews with friends? Lame. What do u do after the sunset tourney? 1 word "VEGAS". Sunset is big enough to actually form 2 layouts, maybe play the course backwards? Idk either way, if VEGAS could figure out a way to get another course/layout it would destroy anything the memorial could offer. If u give me a choice between 2 NT tournies that play at open courses but one is in VEGAS, which tourney would u choose?

Don't kid yourself ppl. Vegas is the ultimate adult playground in the US and deserve a NT. Ultimate winter dg vacation for anyone on the east coast/northern areas and an excuse for ppl that live closer to go to VEGAS.
Pmbeth says it's not NT quality? Neither are the AZ courses. The AZ courses for the memorial need refreshed, the pros are shredding them every year. Its like these TDs put a sleeve in the ground and that's where the basket belongs every year. That's dumb. Move the baskets around at the memorial and make the pros adapt to the New challenge instead of just taking out the same disc for every hole and every shot they have been doin for years. Put up more ropes if you have to. These tree-less courses get so boring year after year. You can say....well emoney... What's your best score at the memorial courses? And I will simply say, SHUT THE HELL UP, that's not the point I'm trying to make. Or you can say, well emoney... In ball golf they play at the same courses year after year, and my reply will be the same. I'm not saying disc golf is easy but these pros can land a disc in a 50ft circle from just about any distance consistently. Ball golf players can not.

How bout instead of arguing who should have the western NT and start talking about how to make the overall experience better and more challenging.

 

[scarpfish]

So there are no spectators in this photo? Those people are all players waiting to tee off? Oh, that is just a tiny, tiny group of nerds from DGCR:doh:

Considering that photo is from Worlds, I'd suspect a great deal of the people there are folks in the non-Open divisions watching the finals or relatives of such. A few might be local area players.

Thing is, true spectators or not, scenes like that are by and far the exception and not the norm.

 

[ru4por]

First of all, the course at sunset and the Vista course are apples and oranges. They are both lame and use what They have in the landscape. Vista is flat hallway aka wash and sunset is def flat and kind of out of place and not scenic either. Fountain hills LOOKS special but the course is not, but is perfect to showcase and spectate disc golf. The main dif to me is LOCATION LOCATION LOCATION. What do u do after ur morning round of dg in Arizona? Have a few brews with friends? Lame. What do u do after the sunset tourney? 1 word "VEGAS". Sunset is big enough to actually form 2 layouts, maybe play the course backwards? Idk either way, if VEGAS could figure out a way to get another course/layout it would destroy anything the memorial could offer. If u give me a choice between 2 NT tournies that play at open courses but one is in VEGAS, which tourney would u choose?

Don't kid yourself ppl. Vegas is the ultimate adult playground in the US and deserve a NT. Ultimate winter dg vacation for anyone on the east coast/northern areas and an excuse for ppl that live closer to go to VEGAS.
Pmbeth says it's not NT quality? Neither are the AZ courses. The AZ courses for the memorial need refreshed, the pros are shredding them every year. Its like these TDs put a sleeve in the ground and that's where the basket belongs every year. That's dumb. Move the baskets around at the memorial and make the pros adapt to the New challenge instead of just taking out the same disc for every hole and every shot they have been doin for years. Put up more ropes if you have to. These tree-less courses get so boring year after year. You can say....well emoney... What's your best score at the memorial courses? And I will simply say, SHUT THE HELL UP, that's not the point I'm trying to make. Or you can say, well emoney... In ball golf they play at the same courses year after year, and my reply will be the same. I'm not saying disc golf is easy but these pros can land a disc in a 50ft circle from just about any distance consistently. Ball golf players can not.

How bout instead of arguing who should have the western NT and start talking about how to make the overall experience better and more challenging.

Honestly could not disagree more. Vegas is the antithesis of why I enjoy and play disc golf. And personally, it is the last place I would go to vacation, winter or any time of the year. I could be in the minority, but busy, bright, loud, congested, desert environments are not my thing.

 

[zenbot]

I thought I would make a new thread with a poll.

5 pages. No poll. What the heck is going on here?

 

[DavidSauls]

Honestly could not disagree more. Vegas is the antithesis of why I enjoy and play disc golf. And personally, it is the last place I would go to vacation, winter or any time of the year. I could be in the minority, but busy, bright, loud, congested, desert environments are not my thing.

You may be in the minority, but not alone. And regardless, I don't travel to a disc golf tournament to be a tourist.

Of course, I don't matter in this equation. The point of NTs is to showcase the top players. Otherwise, you can have an A-tier with big payouts, huge attendance, and a good representation of top pros as well.

Do the elite, say, the top 10 players, value a tournament in Las Vegas because it's Vegas? Are the guys who are living on the road and sleeping on locals' floors going to spend money on the attractions?

*

The broader question of this thread is a good one, though. Should one place have a lock on NTs for a region, and the Opening of the National Tour, forever? With a due reverence to tradition and all they've done in creating The Memorial over these many years, how should the PDGA handle it when other locations, not just Las Vegas, want to host one?

I offer no answers, but I think it's a good question.

 

[ohtobediscing]

Honestly could not disagree more. Vegas is the antithesis of why I enjoy and play disc golf. And personally, it is the last place I would go to vacation, winter or any time of the year. I could be in the minority, but busy, bright, loud, congested, desert environments are not my thing.

Vegas has crappy courses, and its environs do not foster a sense of camraderie. I met some of my best buds and had the most memorable times at the 200/300-person outdoor parties after whitewater events, often far from any town.
But maybe I just don't care for events that feel they need Beyonce, Tom Petty, Slipknot, Will Farrell and the Kardashians attending for validation.

 

[jeffmonty]

So there are no spectators in this photo? Those people are all players waiting to tee off? Oh, that is just a tiny, tiny group of nerds from DGCR:doh:

I'm in this photo, and I just wanted to add that if you multiply the number of people in this photo by at least 4 or 5, that's how big the gallery was. There were people lining the fairway and green, and some more setting up on the next hole. It was something to behold.

 

[DanJon]

So there are no spectators in this photo? Those people are all players waiting to tee off? Oh, that is just a tiny, tiny group of nerds from DGCR:doh:

I'm going to let you in on a secret. Those are all the AMS, their friends and local players. A lot of TD'S don't give out prizes to the AMS until after the pros are done with playoffs, etc.

That way you get a sweet "gallery". I doubt many of those people are true spectators that don't disc golf. Besides it's like 100-150 ppl. We had more spectators at our amateur softball tournaments.

 

[JC17393]

I'm going to let you in on a secret. Those are all the AMS, their friends and local players. A lot of TD'S don't give out prizes to the AMS until after the pros are done with playoffs, etc.

That way you get a sweet "gallery". I doubt many of those people are true spectators that don't disc golf. Besides it's like 100-150 ppl. We had more spectators at our amateur softball tournaments.

That picture is from Pro Worlds. There were no Ams.

 

[elmexdela]

5 pages. No poll. What the heck is going on here?

i dont believe you. no way youre not on page 2

 

[Emoney]

The question is. Should VEGAS be allowed to hold the event. The answer is a huge yes. I know all US disc golfers would rather play in the middle of nowhere at a majestic course and then camp instead of staying at a hotel and all that jazz. The bottom line is it's an NT and VEGAS is perfect for that. They have a possibility to generate a huge amount of money and sponsors. They have enough hotels to handle any amount of disc golfers that travel there. They have more possible sponsors per square mile than anywhere in the US. Plus we are talking about a tourney that's in febuary, Vegas is plenty warm that time of year. The younger generation is what's gonna grow the sport and if someone held an NT in VEGAS with a 10k first place prize for open. It would be the best tourney for the year. Not just because of the money but for the whole experience.

 

[biscoe]

I would think that the fact that the Memorial is Discraft's big pro event of the year likely has something to do with their "lock" on the NT spot. In addition it has been one of the 2-3 biggest money non-majors for as long as I can remember. If it were about courses there would be no NT's in the desert.

 

[puttlikeablowfly]

I would think that the fact that the Memorial is Discraft's big pro event of the year likely has something to do with their "lock" on the NT spot. In addition it has been one of the 2-3 biggest money non-majors for as long as I can remember. If it were about courses there would be no NT's in the desert.

Total speculation here, but with Discraft also becoming a presenting sponsor of the Ledgestone Insurance NT in Peoria this year, with a massive pro payout and large field, perhaps there will be more of a chance for another tourney to take the Memorial's NT spot, at least every so often. Discraft's Great Lakes Open has also been an NT in the past. With Discraft, Innova, DD, DGA, Prodigy, Keen, Vibram, etc, along with the PDGA themselves periodically hosting the HOF Classic as an NT, the big sponsors could each get behind one NT every year.