C1 rules are not designed on rough estimates to start with. If we are already estimating this distance for a rule, I am confused on the issue of further "graying" of the rule.
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Step/Jump Putt rule change?
- Thread starter RyanRehberg535
- Start date
C1 rules are not designed on rough estimates to start with. If we are already estimating this distance for a rule, I am confused on the issue of further "graying" of the rule.
biscoe
* Ace Member *
I would too if there was a way to differentiate it from a follow through on a long fairway shot. I don't really see a reasonable way to do that though.
I wasn't a jump/step putt guy for decades and always thought it looked like it would decrease your chances of making them. Then just last year I tried learning them. I was wrong. I love it. It works for me and it's fun to do. And I do it without foot faulting.
You are allowed in this Frisbee sport to follow through after your lie on a throw except for being close to the basket. So if you're not officially close to the basket (C1), then you should get to follow through. As many have said, making that official number farther away will add difficulty in determining where that is. That would be impractical.
Leave jump/step putting be. If you don't like it, just go ahead and stand there and use all your arm. You can do that too. I won't think any less of you. I did it almost all my life with good results and if that works for you, awesome. We're all friends on the course.
I love watching Chris Dickerson skillfully step putt and Keven Jones do his jumpers too. James Conrad's stepper is entertaining. I also agree with someone else earlier that Calvin Heimburg's standstill putt is also clean and fun to watch. I love it all.
You are allowed in this Frisbee sport to follow through after your lie on a throw except for being close to the basket. So if you're not officially close to the basket (C1), then you should get to follow through. As many have said, making that official number farther away will add difficulty in determining where that is. That would be impractical.
Leave jump/step putting be. If you don't like it, just go ahead and stand there and use all your arm. You can do that too. I won't think any less of you. I did it almost all my life with good results and if that works for you, awesome. We're all friends on the course.
I love watching Chris Dickerson skillfully step putt and Keven Jones do his jumpers too. James Conrad's stepper is entertaining. I also agree with someone else earlier that Calvin Heimburg's standstill putt is also clean and fun to watch. I love it all.
BillFleming
* Ace Member *
I'm for banning Jump Putts....Step Putts aren't quite the same issue.
Jump Putts: Both feet leave the ground moving forward of the lie. Issue: it is difficult to determine if both feet leave the ground before the disc is released. It is also difficult to tell if both feet have passed the lie before the disc is released. In no other shot are both feet allowed to leave the ground and move forward of the lie in that manner.
Step Putts: This is like a normal throw, where one foot moves forward of the lie after the disc is released and the other foot follows. Issue: this is a weird issue and is based on circumstance. On tee/fairway/approach shots, the player is allowed to have their foot touch the ground past their lie after the disc is released...then their other foot can follow through past the lie. On C1 putts, your feet cannot go forward of the lie until the disc has been released AND you must show balance....after those two requirements have been met, you can proceed forward of the lie. Step Putts combine the two...it is a putt, but you don't have to show balance and you can continue forward of the lie after the disc has been released - so it is really not a Step Putt - it is really an upshot (?) that is intended to go into the basket.
As I see it, currently there are three sets of rules for stance/throws.
1. C1 Putts
2. C2 Putts
3. All other
Why do we have separate rules for C2? It would be easier if there were only two sets of rules: putts and other throws. If you are in C2 it should follow the 'All others' rules. I would be against making C2 match C1....you are further out and it is more difficult to make a standing putt from outside C1....so allow C2 throws to be the same as all non-C1 throws.
Jump Putts: Both feet leave the ground moving forward of the lie. Issue: it is difficult to determine if both feet leave the ground before the disc is released. It is also difficult to tell if both feet have passed the lie before the disc is released. In no other shot are both feet allowed to leave the ground and move forward of the lie in that manner.
Step Putts: This is like a normal throw, where one foot moves forward of the lie after the disc is released and the other foot follows. Issue: this is a weird issue and is based on circumstance. On tee/fairway/approach shots, the player is allowed to have their foot touch the ground past their lie after the disc is released...then their other foot can follow through past the lie. On C1 putts, your feet cannot go forward of the lie until the disc has been released AND you must show balance....after those two requirements have been met, you can proceed forward of the lie. Step Putts combine the two...it is a putt, but you don't have to show balance and you can continue forward of the lie after the disc has been released - so it is really not a Step Putt - it is really an upshot (?) that is intended to go into the basket.
As I see it, currently there are three sets of rules for stance/throws.
1. C1 Putts
2. C2 Putts
3. All other
Why do we have separate rules for C2? It would be easier if there were only two sets of rules: putts and other throws. If you are in C2 it should follow the 'All others' rules. I would be against making C2 match C1....you are further out and it is more difficult to make a standing putt from outside C1....so allow C2 throws to be the same as all non-C1 throws.
In a thread in the past someone asked how can you tell when someone is putting.
I can always tell if a player is putting or not, why is that confusing to some? There's a certain stance all players take (different for each player) that is obviously their putting stance.
A new putting rule (ban jumps all together) would apply when someone takes their putting stance and not for a run up in the fairway.
The vast majority of a C1 decisions are based on rough estimates. Are you really carrying around your PDGA approved tape measure? I really don't know how controversial it is to say that estimating 10 m is easier than 20.
I'll try again. The rule is not written as an "about, approximation or close to" rule. The language is very specific. I understand the common practice and practical application.
If you are fine with "close enough" for C1, I am confused where you suddenly start waffling on "close enough" for C2. You are already comfortable with estimating, what is the line of discomfort?
We do provide painted circles or a rope to the basket for our sanctioned events.
biscoe
* Ace Member *
In that case I would oppose it. Last thing we need is another factor subject to arbitrary judgement. Stance differs for everyone, distance at which they use that stance also differs for everyone=no bueno imo.
I'm 75 years old, and jump-putts are a non issue for me as they are not in my arsenal!
:clap::clap::clap:
Right!? I've been playing tournaments for right around 10 years, and C1 has always been an "estimate" Never once have I seen someone pull out a tape measure to verify. It has always been "Pace it off" or - trust the painted line on the ground, even though that doesn't count as an official measurement. I am quite confident in my ability to visually estimate 10m (+/-1m) - the tournament I played this Saturday is a great example. Lead card MA1, same dude asked 4 times the standard "Outside?" and I would say 95% of the time when someone asks this question, I glance and say yup. 4 times, I glanced and said "uhh..." looked up at the other players on the card, they all kind of shrug... benefit goes to the player. I mean, pace it off if you want, if it's that close I can't visually estimate, I'm not sure a pacing estimate is going to be any better. For those of us on the card, speed of play, estimation, yup, you're outside, nobody has a tape measure? Nobody cares that much? go ahead and miss your 9.8m putt by jumping. That grey area is what, 2m? If we're going to extend that to trying to estimate a 20m circle... I can't even.
I can't say I agree with this. Personally, now yes, I have a more prominent putting stance. But if you saw me play a tournament 10 years ago, my "putting stance" from 10 feet was exactly the same as my "approach stance" from 150 feet.
rocthecourse
* Ace Member *
It can be just as hard to tell if a step putt is legal as it is to tell if a jump putt is legal. There are plenty of step putts on video where it appears that the player's stepping foot is making contact with the ground while they are still touching their disc. There are even more where it is so close you can't tell.
Here is a video of an obvious foot fault and it doesn't get called(and it happened multiple times during the round.) Go to 8:05 of this video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HP1xQmZxn6E The putt even gets a Slomez.
If step putts are to remain legal the rules should be changed so that if your step foot comes in contact with anything in front of your lie it is a foot fault, even just grazing the grass should be a foot fault.
It's not an issue of accepting variance, it's an issue of how we come to a consensus while actually playing the hole. Right now, as it stands, when somebody calls out asking whether they are inside the circle, I can make a confident decision. If the circle was at 20 m, I don't think I can make a confident decision on the spot. Add to that a competitive situation like a league or c tier and you have three other people making the call, I think the extra 10m will make a difference. And what if you cannot get consensus? Then you start walking it off, which will be much more difficult with the extra 10m. Good on you for marking your tournaments, but most small tournaments do not and almost no leagues mark.
I have no problem with making the rule 20m, I just wonder how it will play in application. I want rules to make things more streamlined, and I see the potential for this rule to cause a lot of standing around discussing where that 20m circle lies.
If all else fails...use the actual rule? What if you are on a card and ask, "outside?", and everyone says....gee, I don't really know. I do know several guys that carry large tape measures in their bags.
I am being a bit obtuse, but I guess I will remain unclear on how you apply the rule. I don't really follow through on any of my shots, so I would be just fine with a run ups allow, everywhere and no follow through.
oldmandiscer
Banned
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So let me get their straight, putting is too easy and low rounds are bad, but fairways aren't clear enough and only "lucky" players can miss trees?? The amazing thing about watching pros throw is just how lucky they get on wooded courses. It is almost as if they are TRYING to miss the trees!
Did you watch the latest coverage from Myrtle Beach? That course epitomizes what I am talking about. Sockatree course they call it. I think every player hit a tree on every single hole. lol
OK maybe not but dang close.
The point is BECAUSE putting is irrelevant for the most part, the long game has to be made extremely hard which then translates to luck as well. It doesn't matter how good you are, you are going to be hitting trees constantly there and courses like that.
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So I followed Myrtle Beach all weekend. There were 12 players rated about 1020 that competed. The top rated player won and 8 of the aforementioned 1020+ rated players finished in the top 12.
If it is about luck and not about skill, why did the bulk of the top rated players gravitate towards the top of the leaderboard?
Cgkdisc
.:Hall of Fame Member:.
Better players overcome bad kicks better than lower rated players. Where "excess" luck comes in is scrambling the finish positions of those who started with similar ratings at whatever level.
If this rule change goes into affect here is what might happen:
-longer round times, yet another rule that will be argued if someone places a foot forward.
-longer round times cause circle 2 is even more difficult to define than c1
-the beauty of the sport relies on having flexibility. If the inertia of a long putt take you past your lie that should be part of the game and part of a healthy form
Yet another rule that will slow play, add confusion and unnecessary technique change. Have you heard me complain about the PDGA limiting the growth of the sport before?!?
-longer round times, yet another rule that will be argued if someone places a foot forward.
-longer round times cause circle 2 is even more difficult to define than c1
-the beauty of the sport relies on having flexibility. If the inertia of a long putt take you past your lie that should be part of the game and part of a healthy form
Yet another rule that will slow play, add confusion and unnecessary technique change. Have you heard me complain about the PDGA limiting the growth of the sport before?!?
