TD not paying vendor

[jasonandsharon]

Little League, Pop Warner, and youth soccer club have all long ago gone to codifying their sanctioning agreements with TD to limit liability and to avoid court and push toward mediation.

 

[JC17393]

PDGA has no Code of Conduct that TD's are required to adhere to?

Of course they do. Both the Competition Manual and the Sanctioning Agreement spell out TD responsibilities. But these only encompasses the dealings the TD has with the players and with the organization. Any dealings the TD has with vendors is between him and them. Nothing to do with the PDGA. As has been stated multiple times now, they don't have the manpower or the financial ability to be getting involved in third party transactions for thousands of tournaments each year.

 

[jasonandsharon]

Of course they do. Both the Competition Manual and the Sanctioning Agreement spell out TD responsibilities. But these only encompasses the dealings the TD has with the players and with the organization. Any dealings the TD has with vendors is between him and them. Nothing to do with the PDGA. As has been stated multiple times now, they don't have the manpower or the financial ability to be getting involved in third party transactions for thousands of tournaments each year.

In almost all states a sanctioning or governing body is responsible for third-party agreements with vendors, whether they like it or not it is the law. Think of it as a contractor and sub-contractor if you hire a contractor and he doesn't pay the subcontractors you are responsible under the law.

 

[Old Dog]

Nonsense. If you take him to court and he admits to not paying, or you have rock solid proof, you should be awarded a judgment.

Now, collecting on a judgment is another matter, If he has a real job you can garnish his wages.

Good luck with that. All the TD has to say is that he had no agreement to pay the vendor anything and that he was under the impression that the vendor was donating his goods/services to support the club and to get free advertising for his business. TD's word against the Vendors unless the vendor can come up with some kind of documentation or witnesses proving that he was to be payed for his products or services rendered at the event.

Could be the TD is a dirt bag, but in the real world the good guy doesn't always win.

Also could be that the TD feels that the Vendor did not uphold his end of the deal for some reason. Did he promise premium plastic but delivered base line for example. We are only getting one side of the story here.

I learned a long time ago that there are usually 3 sides to every dispute. Each of the two parties have their own take on what happened and then the full truth is somewhere in between.

 

[JC17393]

Also could be that the TD feels that the Vendor did not uphold his end of the deal for some reason. Did he promise premium plastic but delivered base line for example. We are only getting one side of the story here.

From the description, the vendor agreed to sell the TD gift certificates to his store. The TD distributed those gift certificates to the players as prizes. The players redeemed them with the store. The vendor never got paid for those gift certificates.

If it was a matter of the TD being unhappy with the vendor's selection of inventory, to the point where he didn't want to pay the vendor, he never should have distributed the gift certificates. Once he did that, it shouldn't matter what the previous agreement was, the TD owes for the product the vendor gave to the players in exchange for those gift certificates.

 

[dehaas]

Were entry fees paid in cash the day of the event, or was there online registration done through somebody online?

Maybe I'm wrong, but the TD should know at the event the total amount of the payout. If x dollars of merch was to be provided why was merch given out without x dollars in hand, ESPCIALLY if it's a TD you haven't worked with before.

That's not to say dude isn't a scumbag for not paying what he owes, but I'm guessing payout was a couple of hundred bucks of merch. You're crazy for not making sure you had money in hand before giving out any form of payout, in my opinion at least.

 

[Old Dog]

From the description, the vendor agreed to sell the TD gift certificates to his store. The TD distributed those gift certificates to the players as prizes. The players redeemed them with the store. The vendor never got paid for those gift certificates.

If it was a matter of the TD being unhappy with the vendor's selection of inventory, to the point where he didn't want to pay the vendor, he never should have distributed the gift certificates. Once he did that, it shouldn't matter what the previous agreement was, the TD owes for the product the vendor gave to the players in exchange for those gift certificates.

Okay, I must have missed the gift certificate part. But regardless the TD could have gotten the impression that the Vendor was giving them out to promote his business and bring people into his store. Merchants often give away gift certificates threw other businesses to entice people to come into their stores in hopes that they will buy a few other things while they are there redeeming the certificates or to increase awareness of the business to potential new customers. Movie theaters handing out coupons to a local pizza joint and vice versa is a prime example I've see many times.

Seems to me both parties probably did okay. The TD probably attracted a few more players to his tournament with the promise of the gift certificates and the vendor probably got a little more foot traffic (exposure) and maybe made a few extra sales he otherwise would not have because of the certificates being handed out at the tournament.

Again if it were me I would not loose a lot of sleep over it. I would a) chock it up as learning experience, b) Write it off my business taxes as non-collection of payment due and or advertising costs.

I would not waste precious time or resources taking him to court if there was a remote chance that I would not win or would not collect anything even if I did. Then if I were to "sponsor" another event I would make sure I had a written agreement of what was expected from the TD going into it.

I'm not taking sides here just thinking like a business owner. Sometimes it's best to just take your lumps and move on rather than giving yourself ulcers because some DB put one over on you. Keep in mind what they say about karma... if this TD really is intentionally screwing his vendors his day will come.

 

[JC17393]

Okay, I must have missed the gift certificate part. But regardless the TD could have gotten the impression that the Vendor was giving them out to promote his business and bring people into his store. Merchants often give away gift certificates threw other businesses to entice people to come into their stores in hopes that they will buy a few other things while they are there redeeming the certificates or to increase awareness of the business to potential new customers. Movie theaters handing out coupons to a local pizza joint and vice versa is a prime example I've see many times.

Seems to me both parties probably did okay. The TD probably attracted a few more players to his tournament with the promise of the gift certificates and the vendor probably got a little more foot traffic (exposure) and maybe made a few extra sales he otherwise would not have because of the certificates being handed out at the tournament.

Again if it were me I would not loose a lot of sleep over it. I would a) chock it up as learning experience, b) Write it off my business taxes as non-collection of payment due and or advertising costs.

I would not waste precious time or resources taking him to court if there was a remote chance that I would not win or would not collect anything even if I did. Then if I were to "sponsor" another event I would make sure I had a written agreement of what was expected from the TD going into it.

I'm not taking sides here just thinking like a business owner. Sometimes it's best to just take your lumps and move on rather than giving yourself ulcers because some DB put one over on you. Keep in mind what they say about karma... if this TD really is intentionally screwing his vendors his day will come.

I think you may be under-estimating how much the business is out here. It's not likely a couple hundred bucks, it's likely more than that unless there was a small turn-out. Say 40 ams at an average of $25 a piece is $1000 in retail value merch. More players or a higher entry fee and that figure just goes up. Pretty big loss for a vendor to take, especially in this game where not everyone who vends has endless inventory or capital.

Also, when I said "gift certificates" I didn't mean that the vendor physically handed the TD certificates to distribute. I mean that the TD made up certs or some sort of representation of cash value (could have been an empty envelope with a dollar figure on it), handed them to the winning players, and the players in turn gave them to the vendor in exchange for product. And all this happened at the tournament site. The vendor brought his inventory to the park. Players didn't go to a physical store to cash in their winnings.

Generally speaking, there is a pretty clear delineation between a vendor donating product for prizes and vending amateur payouts. Hard to mistake one for the other. That said, if it were a case of the TD mis-understanding the situation (thinking the vendor donated the prizes), why would the TD duck the vendor's calls for payment? Couldn't simply saying "oh, I thought they were donated" clear things up?

Could the vendor have done more to safeguard himself? Sure, but he says he's vended for tournaments before and never had this issue, so it makes sense to me that he trusted the TD would follow through by the end of the day. Now he won't, which is a shame.

 

[DavidSauls]

As someone who's vended tournaments, I wouldn't let it pass. I'd hound the TD, in private and in public. Especially in public. I'd make sure his name was mud in the local disc golf community. Perhaps for years.

Not sure about court---that's a bit iffy. Nor the PDGA; I just wouldn't consider it a PDGA matter.

 

[Rob Martin]

Does anyone else think this should be something the pdga should consider changing and adding to their rules to protect vendors? Its not right that the pdga wont even take away his td rights. Basically their allowing a criminal to continue to be a criminal?

No, I don't think the PDGA should be involved as it is outside of their scope.

However, as I'm just south of you, and know a fair amount of disc golf in Nebraska, I would like to know who the TD is.

I would recommend putting him on blast and contacting small claims court.

 

[Noill]

Yes, I agreed to do the payout merch for the am payouts. Which I have not been paid for from the td.

Unfortunately I do not have a contract. I have been doing this for years now without ever having to have one and never been a problem. Definitely going to have to have one from now on! Which is sad to think. It blows my mind someone would even consider doing this.

Does anyone else think this should be something the pdga should consider changing and adding to their rules to protect vendors? Its not right that the pdga wont even take away his td rights. Basically their allowing a criminal to continue to be a criminal?

Has anyone one gone through small claims court? Have any insight for me?

Small claims court if under $5K (i think)...establish the terms of the relationship with emails, texts, phone calls, and notes that you took after interactions with the td... That is quite a lot ( if you have most of that) to prove the business relationship was agreed to by both and was not honored by one...

Good luck, I think you have a winning position.

 

[Noill]

Also, if going the court route, I would not put the td on blast publically...let the court sort it out.

Lastly, the PDGA is not involved and shouldn't be... That is a relationship they didn't enter into and have no responsibility for...

 

[joecoin]

...

I'm not taking sides here just thinking like a business owner. Sometimes it's best to just take your lumps and move on rather than giving yourself ulcers because some DB put one over on you. Keep in mind what they say about karma... if this TD really is intentionally screwing his vendors his day will come.

As a business owner for over 30 years, I would just turn him over to my attorney and let him handle it. Usually results in some remuneration. Half a loaf is better than none.

So how much money have you lost over the years just taking your lumps?

Karma is a falsehood.

 

[davetherocketguy]

Does anyone else think this should be something the pdga should consider changing and adding to their rules to protect vendors? Its not right that the pdga wont even take away his td rights. Basically their allowing a criminal to continue to be a criminal?

No. And Hell no. They are not the court and do not have the means or finances to establish criminal conduct. The courts are there to settle issues like this so use them. Making the PDGA police this stuff would be reduntant and generating the rules to govern this TD/Vendor relationship would be reinventing the wheel.

The last tourney I ran I paid my supplier FIRST and then gave gift certificates to the players to redeem online or in person at their convienience. Easy peasy. Went through Disc Baron in Grand Rapids by the way and have not had a single complaint. Lesson learned...get payment first.

 

[Old Dog]

I think you may be under-estimating how much the business is out here. It's not likely a couple hundred bucks, it's likely more than that unless there was a small turn-out. Say 40 ams at an average of $25 a piece is $1000 in retail value merch. More players or a higher entry fee and that figure just goes up. Pretty big loss for a vendor to take, especially in this game where not everyone who vends has endless inventory or capital.

Also, when I said "gift certificates" I didn't mean that the vendor physically handed the TD certificates to distribute. I mean that the TD made up certs or some sort of representation of cash value (could have been an empty envelope with a dollar figure on it), handed them to the winning players, and the players in turn gave them to the vendor in exchange for product. And all this happened at the tournament site. The vendor brought his inventory to the park. Players didn't go to a physical store to cash in their winnings.

Seriously?! This is how these tournaments operate? What kind of business owner would agree to such terms. The TD is free to hand out as many "certificates" against the vendors merchandise as he pleases and the the vendor isn't payed up front nor does he have a written contract or written guarantee of reimbursement for these "certificats"? That's ludicrous. As a former business owner I can tell you I would never agree to such a deal. Way too much risk with the potential for very little return. You'ld be better off just hawking your goods from a rented booth at the tournament. No wonder DG can't seem to move beyond being a hobby sport.

 

[Old Dog]

As a business owner for over 30 years, I would just turn him over to my attorney and let him handle it. Usually results in some remuneration. Half a loaf is better than none.

So how much money have you lost over the years just taking your lumps?

Karma is a falsehood.

Have been stiffed a couple of times and just wrote it off as bad debt. Of course I didn't get it all back but figured I collected what I would have if I took time off to go to court or payed an attorney to go to court for me and again there was no guarantee I would collect even if the judge ruled in my favor.

 

[davetherocketguy]

Seriously?! This is how these tournaments operate? What kind of business owner would agree to such terms. The TD is free to hand out as many "certificates" against the vendors merchandise as he pleases and the the vendor isn't payed up front nor does he have a written contract or written guarantee of reimbursement for these "certificats"? That's ludicrous. As a former business owner I can tell you I would never agree to such a deal. Way too much risk with the potential for very little return. You'ld be better off just hawking your goods from a rented booth at the tournament. No wonder DG can't seem to move beyond being a hobby sport.

Ahhh no. Thats not how it worked with me at least. Frankly, what you are suggesting would be rather collossally stupid.

I handed out gift certs with names and dollar amounts on each. Added up grand total and then sent all the information such as how much $ on each cert to the vendor. Each cert had a unique serial number on it. Then I paid the vendor and then the vendor activated the certs in his system. It takes a day or two to complete all that but who cares? The players are happier since they don't have to sort through whatever the vendor could cram in his car but have access to the vendors entire store online and can leave the tourney as soon as they get their certs. This way, I don't have to listen to any whining about the poor selection the vendor brought.

-Dave

 

[Doofenshmirtz]

I recently vended a large tournament for a local TD that is refusing to pay me for my services.

Why oh why would you hand out prizes before you got paid?????

TD is a thief, but you should demand to be paid before you hand out any vouchers.

 

[DiscFifty]

you should demand to be paid before you hand out any vouchers.

yep. Bidness is bidness.

 

[Casey 1988]

Why oh why would you hand out prizes before you got paid?????

TD is a thief, but you should demand to be paid before you hand out any vouchers.

Yes and the division slots that might not get filled the age ones on the extreme ends of or the Rec one tell the director he can take them in to get his money back. I would Have a agreement written on your end that that is what should happen charging each divisions voucher separately on the bill with a copy of bill for you and him. That way he gets his money back.