Tell Me What I Need to Work on

[sidewinder22]

If you think of your core as a sling shot during the door frame drill, your core is fully cocked/loaded when you move your butt forward and brace it against the front leg, and when you release from the door frame you have no choice but to move/swing/sling the upper body forward to release that tension and your arm just follows along giving some nice lag. Your legs are the posts of the sling shot. When you release from the door frame, your butt/lower spine need to start moving/clearing away from the target to counterweight/sling/catapult the arm/disc moving to the target. The rear leg keeps the sling from losing tension/leverage backward, and the front leg braces/posts your butt/lower spine from losing tension/leverage forward and clears the front hip out of the way. If you don't brace the lower spine against the front leg, you lose that leverage from the rear leg/post even when it's not on the ground because then your upper spine tips over so you lose compression. Your chest should be compressed toward the knees or ground which allows you to pull through your center, your center of gravity moves outside the body by changing your posture. So if your shoulders are stacked over your knees with your hips bent(squatting position) your butt is countering out the opposite direction and now you have this nice unobstructed pocket to pull/swing the disc through close to your center.

The idea of shifting your weight is a bit convoluted, really it's about maintaing posture and balance to transfer force through compression. Weight is a force(weight/force=mass*acceleration) measured in one direction which is down against the ground. Think about having a scale under each foot. Now think about this massive thing under your feet called earth. It's easier to think about shifting your balance dynamically to support the earth throughout the throw. You can also think about supporting a ton over your shoulders throughout the throw. Your forward momentum can be transferred into more weight/force but it must be braced through your posture to go through the ground. You can also super charge momentum by going airborne/weightless so that you land with more weight/force than your static weight. This is why posture is so important, so you can support earth and use it's momentum through compression.

As for the setup stance...closed hips with the feet staggered, so the front foot is closer to the left side of the tee pad, with the rear toes lined up behind the front heel. The front foot should be slightly forward of perpendicular to the target maybe 30 but not more than 45 degrees from perpendicular. The rear foot should also be around 30-45 degrees past perpendicular. Play around with different angles of the feet and feel where more leverage comes through the body.

 

[tylerc]

went to the field and just got back (lit astroturf ) but the first 50 or 60 throws felt really great and I had all my distance back and I could hit anything consistent. after that my pointer finger started hurting a lot it kinda always hurts but I have a callous there but after about 80 throws I now have a wonderful blood blister.. but back to the throws. I think I may have figured out the door frame drill. so from my understanding that is to help find the point and stance that I should get into during the furtherest back point of the back swing. so going from there I could smoothly transition into the throw. I wasn't throwing bombs but I was throwing consistent which is nice. I think im not fully braced yet but I think with some more work I can get there. also sidewinder22 in ur above post are u saying that the feet should not be in line parallel to the one that you are throwing on? I think I line mine up so if a line were drawn between my heels it would be parallel to my pull line? I have seen mcbeth have the back foot off to the right when he is throwing but I thought that was just a thing each person does different?

 

[danostrowski]

You want to stagger your stance so it's closed. Back foot should be slightly further from the pull line than the front foot (try toes to back of heel.)

 

[sidewinder22]

Pretty much.

Serious compression in this vid, especially Wiggins. His follow through is like a recoiling spring.

 

[tylerc]

I've never tried that weird ok ill have to do that tomorrow if I can throw with this blister..
but what do u mean that there is serious compression in the video? I know u kind of explained it in ur previous comment but what are indicators that good compression is occurring?

 

[sidewinder22]

but what do u mean that there is serious compression in the video? I know u kind of explained it in ur previous comment but what are indicators that good compression is occurring?

They have compressed so hard against the ground they actually spring up in the follow through.

 

[iacas]

They have compressed so hard against the ground they actually spring up in the follow through.

The goal is not to spring hard in the follow through, but just prior to impact. The lead knee will often begin straightening at about the time the shaft gets to parallel.

Golfers jump because it creates parametric acceleration which sends the clubhead DOWN. Yanking up on the end of the handle (the grip end) snaps the clubhead downward at the last instant. The forces in golfers "jumping" are largely vertical - a normal throw in disc golf is more horizontal. Distance throws go up a little more, though. Straightening the lead knee in golf also increases the turning rates. If you want to turn slowly, try to keep your knee bent.

Heck, I uploaded this one over three years ago:



Not something you want to do in a disc golf motion. Works well for golf though.

 

[sidewinder22]

The goal is not to spring hard in the follow through, but just prior to impact. The lead knee will often begin straightening at about the time the shaft gets to parallel.

Golfers jump because it creates parametric acceleration which sends the clubhead DOWN. Yanking up on the end of the handle (the grip end) snaps the clubhead downward at the last instant. The forces in golfers "jumping" are largely vertical - a normal throw in disc golf is more horizontal. Distance throws go up a little more, though. Straightening the lead knee in golf also increases the turning rates. If you want to turn slowly, try to keep your knee bent.

Heck, I uploaded this one over three years ago:

Not something you want to do in a disc golf motion. Works well for golf though.

There's some timing difference between disc golf and ball golf and also positional due to the fact it's a one arm swing vs two arm swing with a large difference in the last lever length. Ball golfers spring earlier. The higher the trajectory the more spring. Disc golf distance drives should have an upward trajectory causing the golfer to stand up in the finish and with enough momentum they will spring off the ground. Any throw on hyzer uses this parametric acceleration.

 

[iacas]

There's some timing difference between disc golf and ball golf and also positional due to the fact it's a one arm swing vs two arm swing with a large difference in the last lever length. Ball golfers spring earlier.

That's not really the point I was making. Disc golf is oriented more horizontally, so parametric acceleration would actually be horizontal in the other direction.

In golf the golfer explodes upwards to snap the clubhead downwards (and since you're holding onto it, it curves in the arc). In disc golf you'd have to explode backwards to snap something else forward.

The higher the trajectory the more spring.

Not necessarily, but most other things being equal, sure. In golf that simply has more to do with shallowing the descent of the club and kicking it to an inline condition with the lead arm a bit sooner (both of which deliver a less downward blow and more loft to the ball).

Disc golf distance drives

I'll stop you there, because this thread is about throwing golf lines, not pure distance, isn't it? And even so the distance drives aren't thrown upwards very much (30°? 35°?), and again parametric acceleration creates speed in the opposite direction (explode up, creates speed downward), so no, disc golf wouldn't really be parametric acceleration by compressing and jumping up. They're just exploding upwards to direct their force along the path - forward (mostly) and a little upward - ideally the combination of forward plus up creates the angle on which they intend to launch the disc (the 30° or whatever their vertical launch angle is).

Again, I will add that it's MUCH easier to pivot with speed on a "less flexed" knee than one that's remained flexed, and rotational speed is important to disc golf (and golf as well).

 

[danostrowski]

I think sw22 is talking about using the downward force to compress against for your forward momentum. The result, if you're really getting "down and forward" force is going to be that you pop up at the end.

It's much easier to push forward through a throw if you have downward pressure loading your back leg.

 

[sidewinder22]

That's not really the point I was making. Disc golf is oriented more horizontally, so parametric acceleration would actually be horizontal in the other direction.

In golf the golfer explodes upwards to snap the clubhead downwards (and since you're holding onto it, it curves in the arc). In disc golf you'd have to explode backwards to snap something else forward.


Not necessarily, but most other things being equal, sure. In golf that simply has more to do with shallowing the descent of the club and kicking it to an inline condition with the lead arm a bit sooner (both of which deliver a less downward blow and more loft to the ball).


I'll stop you there, because this thread is about throwing golf lines, not pure distance, isn't it? And even so the distance drives aren't thrown upwards very much (30°? 35°?), and again parametric acceleration creates speed in the opposite direction (explode up, creates speed downward), so no, disc golf wouldn't really be parametric acceleration by compressing and jumping up. They're just exploding upwards to direct their force along the path - forward (mostly) and a little upward - ideally the combination of forward plus up creates the angle on which they intend to launch the disc (the 30° or whatever their vertical launch angle is).

Again, I will add that it's MUCH easier to pivot with speed on a "less flexed" knee than one that's remained flexed, and rotational speed is important to disc golf (and golf as well).

I'm not sure what you are arguing. Acceleration added down is also added out along the swing plane. Most pros throw on hyzer or use a more vertical swing(vertical shoulders/Swedish hybrid), because it's easier to use gravity and more consistent. Markus Kallstrom probably has the best more horizontal swing(shoulders stay mostly horizontal except on hyzer) and you are right that he almost jumps backwards instead of up/forward on those throws, but he is clearly using a vertical component by jumping during the x-step and then lowering his center of gravity and using compression. He also tends to spray more shots left or right, and he doesn't throw as far as some of the others on higher distance lines but still pretty far. The best throws have a mix of vertical and horizontal components. I also agree with the knee, and a stiffening knee is a jumping action, it should never be locked out though.

Here you can see Brinster and GG snapping the club head down and out at the end of the throw on hyzer and standing perfectly upright in the finish.

 

[iacas]

It's much easier to push forward through a throw if you have downward pressure loading your back leg.

Golfers don't do much with their rear leg or foot on the downswing in a golf swing. Disc golfers show a similar pattern - their rear foot is often in the process of flying up in the air.

I'm not sure what you are arguing.

I suppose it's basically that golfers jump because it snaps the club down. Disc golfers don't appreciably jump (or compress in preparation to jump) because they're orienting their speed horizontally.

Any acceleration vertically - upwards or downwards - is almost normal (perpendicular) to the direction in which a disc golfer wants to orient their forces - mostly horizontally.

For distance lines, I imagine some will compress because they need to jump to help add some upwards because the vertical launch angle is higher on a distance line than on a golf line.

Acceleration added down is also added out along the swing plane.

You don't accelerate downward to add speed horizontally.

I also agree with the knee, and a stiffening knee is a jumping action, it should never be locked out though.

Right, I agree that nobody wants a truly locked out and definitely not a hyperextended knee. But it's the rotational speed that comes from a "straight-ish" leg that is relevant to both golfers and disc golfers.

Here you can see Brinster and GG snapping the club head down and out at the end of the throw on hyzer and standing perfectly upright in the finish.

I don't see it that way at all. Brinster's head and torso remain at the same level and inclination from his reach back to the hit, and so do GG's.

Heck the after pictures here are WELL after the hit. They're just rotating around the axis established by their spine (within a few degrees). They extend their lead knee because it helps maintain their pivot speed.

Anything that happens after that - WELL after the disc is thrown - is inconsequential. They could fall over if they wanted and the disc would obviously do whatever it was going to do normally as it's 30 feet away from them or more by then.

 

[danostrowski]

Golfers don't do much with their rear leg or foot on the downswing in a golf swing. Disc golfers show a similar pattern - their rear foot is often in the process of flying up in the air.

I am not really going to get into golf swings, but the rear leg pushes forward and helps rotate the hips out, horizontally. However, that pushing is helped by gravity. If the rear foot is in the air, the throw is over. I'm not sure if I'm missing something here or if you are, but I think you're not talking about the same part of the throw I am, I'm talking about the loading of the back leg which is always done with the ball of the rear foot firmly planted.

 

[sidewinder22]

Golfers don't do much with their rear leg or foot on the downswing in a golf swing. Disc golfers show a similar pattern - their rear foot is often in the process of flying up in the air.

The rear leg/foot levers/strides the whole spine targetward until it gets pulled from the forward momentum. Faster the speed, the sooner the rear foot gets pulled.

I suppose it's basically that golfers jump because it snaps the club down. Disc golfers don't appreciably jump (or compress in preparation to jump) because they're orienting their speed horizontally.

Any acceleration vertically - upwards or downwards - is almost normal (perpendicular) to the direction in which a disc golfer wants to orient their forces - mostly horizontally.

For distance lines, I imagine some will compress because they need to jump to help add some upwards because the vertical launch angle is higher on a distance line than on a golf line.


You don't accelerate downward to add speed horizontally.

I'm not sure about horizontal, but it certainly adds leverage(lowering center of gravity) and forward speed via pendulum action. Part of why we don't see disc golfers jumping as high as golfers is because there's more forward momentum.

But it's the rotational speed that comes from a "straight-ish" leg that is relevant to both golfers and disc golfers.

It stiffens to brace and clear the front hip which adds rotational speed. It's easier to brace against a more flexed knee as it's more athletic.

I don't see it that way at all. Brinster's head and torso remain at the same level and inclination from his reach back to the hit, and so do GG's.

Heck the after pictures here are WELL after the hit. They're just rotating around the axis established by their spine (within a few degrees). They extend their lead knee because it helps maintain their pivot speed.


Anything that happens after that - WELL after the disc is thrown - is inconsequential. They could fall over if they wanted and the disc would obviously do whatever it was going to do normally as it's 30 feet away from them or more by then.

That's not the best angle to look at and a very short period of time in those photos which doesn't quite show the whole story. The finish is very important because it is evidence of what happens through impact. There's a lot more G-force that can be hard to see, just because the head doesn't change height much in that time-frame doesn't mean there's not a lot of squat/thrust force. All you have to do is look at the height in the backswing compared to power zone and you can see the compression.

On the left is a typical am that has little compression/squat(little bend on the hips/knees) during the throw and tips the spine back and forth and it rotates around instead of striding forward and centered lowering the spine/center of gravity. The OP does the opposite of this below where the posture/head collapses through impact.

The bottom pics show the rip and first frame past impact. The am on the left arm follows through way forward of the rip point, so its an early release and there's still lots of forward momentum after impact that isn't transferred to the disc. Brinster on the right finishes more rotatory past impact. This is what most ams do. They rotate early/spend leverage or tip and finish more forward, where the pros stride forward/maintaining leverage then finish more rotary.

 

[Mocheez]

I think the importance of bracing the front leg is due to the slingshot affect that you mentioned earlier as opposed to the compression and subsequent release of energy. It's only important if you are trying to add height to the throw while keeping the nose down (distance lines).

It's like travelling 55mph in a car and then slamming on the brakes... if the person in the back seat isn't wearing a seatbelt, they are going to end up going through the windshield. In disc golf, the front front leg and hip is the brake and the disc is the passenger sitting in the backseat.

 

[iacas]

I am not really going to get into golf swings, but the rear leg pushes forward and helps rotate the hips out, horizontally.

The foot is largely unweighted. Often the knee is increasing its flex. It's often not doing much to push off at all.

However, that pushing is helped by gravity.

Pushing horizontally is not "aided by gravity." If you meant something else, please explain, because gravity simply pulls us downward at a near-constant acceleration.

If the rear foot is in the air, the throw is over.

First guy in my library: Will Schusterick. http://cl.ly/image/2S1A0m3r2y2P . The foot is rising into the air. It's slipping and about to kick up, and he's just barely started his pull. He's clearly NOT pushing off with his back foot.

The rear leg/foot levers/strides the whole spine targetward until it gets pulled from the forward momentum. Faster the speed, the sooner the rear foot gets pulled.

The rear foot is being unweighted from just prior to the reach-back all the way through to the end of the throw.

If you're talking about the run-up, then we're talking about two different things.

I'm not sure about horizontal, but it certainly adds leverage(lowering center of gravity) and forward speed via pendulum action. Part of why we don't see disc golfers jumping as high as golfers is because there's more forward momentum.

Well, that and other reasons, yes. Disc golfers are projecting a target forwards (horizontally), while golfers are asked to be accurate to less than an eighth of an inch to a stationary object or point on the ground.

It stiffens to brace and clear the front hip which adds rotational speed. It's easier to brace against a more flexed knee as it's more athletic.

I agree, and the extension of the knee aids in adding to the pivot speed, which I've said a few times.

That's not the best angle to look at and a very short period of time in those photos which doesn't quite show the whole story.

I disagree. That's the only part of the throw that really matters - from the reach back to the follow-through. Anything before it is just the run-up. Clearly these disc golfers are not "compressing downward" or "exploding upward."

Your rainbow graphics show very little vertical motion and much of that can be explained by the increased forward flex from the hips, in large part which helps put the shoulders on a proper angle.

The finish is very important because it is evidence of what happens through impact.

And my photos showed well into the finish - the disc is tens of feet from the disc golfer. I know that what comes after tells the tale of what came before, but I illustrated well after the throw and the disc golfers didn't raise up at all - they're not "exploding up" to help propel the disc. They may straighten up or even "explode up" but it's WELL after the disc has left their hand.

http://cl.ly/image/0G2n0e1g3u3Y
http://cl.ly/image/0e1Z3V0B3n32

If y'all are talking about something else, please share, but I am not sure that you are.

 

[iacas]

This video is used fairly often: http://cl.ly/image/390c3W3W0d1M

Again, if y'all are talking about something else, just let me know.

 

[sidewinder22]

Rory and Padraig doing the happy gilmore:

 

[iacas]

Rory and Padraig doing the happy gilmore:

You're talking about two totally different planes here. Disc golf cannot be compared to golf in that sense. Parametric Acceleration (PA) applies to the golf swing because it kicks the clubhead down and out as various parts of the body pull up and in. The Rory/Paddy shots are perfectly good examples of PA in the golf swing isn't really the topic here (Here's Jamie Sadlowski using a TON (for a golfer) of PA: http://cl.ly/image/3M1T1H3K3Z0k). (FWIW, the level of the head isn't how you'd demonstrate PA in the golf swing… but that's for another forum and another time).

Again, PA would apply in the disc golf throwing motion if the thrower pulled something back or in to snap something forward or out (and that likely happens - I'd contend it's a big part of the "hit").

But this discussion is (or is now) talking about vertical motion, no? The golf swing has more of it because the golf swing is a more vertically oriented motion. The disc golf throwing motion is more horizontal.

You've contended - and in your last post even demonstrated how pros (or one pro, at least) "compress" and "extend" throughout the throwing motion by measuring the height of their heads - yet I've demonstrated the opposite - that the heads of many pros remain at a fairly consistent height throughout the throw from the pull back WELL into the follow-through.

------

Look, it comes down to this. Someone said something about compressing and exploding or "using gravity" or somesuch in the disc golf throwing motion. I don't see it. I've created images from several videos where I don't see it. It doesn't make sense to me from a biomechanics standpoint or a physics standpoint.

So I'm asking that question.

Yes, I originally talked about how golfers compress and extend in the golf swing, but the purpose there was to illustrate that the planes are different and that you cannot compare the two, just as comparing the golf swing to the baseball swing often fails - different goals, different planes of motion, different criteria (ball not sitting on the ground being key in baseball), etc.

So if we can limit the discussion to disc golf, and how exactly pros are "compressing" and "exploding" and how in the heck gravity plays any role in doing anything except constantly pulling down on the thrower and the disc (while in their hands and in the air), that'd be great, because to this point, the advice seems like the "this is what it feels like" or "this is what pros say it feels like" type of advice rather than what actually happens.

Feels are often wrong. I asked Will Schusterick if he was pushing with his rear foot all the way until he released the disc, and he replied strongly affirmatively, but clearly he's not. His feel isn't reality.

So my question still hasn't been answered: how are the disc golfers using "compression/explosion" or "gravity" when they aren't changing the levels of their body parts appreciably (gravity operates vertically). And how does one supposedly use "gravity" or this "compressing against the ground" to propel a disc roughly 90° to the direction in which gravity operates?

I agree that some of the distance drivers in the earlier video are "springing up," but to my eyes and frame-by-frame observation it's well after the disc golf has left their hands before they even begin to spring up.

 

[danostrowski]

The foot is largely unweighted. Often the knee is increasing its flex. It's often not doing much to push off at all.

I'm kind of unconvinced on this one.

I think the push is around here:

It's hard to see in the mechanics of itself, even on video, but ... well, I played baseball for what, I dunno... years.

When you do a baseball swing, you most definitely push with your rear leg (specifically the ball of your rear foot), and you generally lower your center of gravity while doing it. If you do the same swing WITHOUT that slight moment of push from your back leg, you can feel you don't get the same power.

At least, I can.

Pushing horizontally is not "aided by gravity." If you meant something else, please explain, because gravity simply pulls us downward at a near-constant acceleration.

Well, pushing horizontally is literally impossible without gravity. You need traction and that traction comes from being pulled downward by gravity!

Like I said, it's kind of a subtle thing that I think you CAN feel, even if it isn't obvious in videos or stills. Certainly in my baseball drill you can't really tell the difference, looking at it, between folding and pushing (I don't think.)

The thing that makes sense to me, mechanically, is if you look at Dave, here:

Like a fair amount of pros, he's got a hop that lifts him up into the air and then down into that rear leg plant. The only logical thing that can help, from what I know of disc golf (which, granted, is not much) is that he's using that additional downward force for traction and to spring up against during the push, as you do with a baseball swing, a baseball pitch, etc.