ThighMaster move from DG Spin Doctor

[disc-golf-neil]

I haven't heard this described as something to try to do actively. If it has, please link, otherwise I'm curious if people think it has potential to be a good cue.

 

[Brychanus]

Literal Thighmaster recruits hip adduction under resistance. Good for hip adductors. Involved in locomotion.

In locomotion weight shift theory rear leg counterbalance should be deweighted and follow through the momentum in the tilted axis (moves 2 and 3 here).

IMHO I don't mind the cue as long as you also encode the tilted axis. Babies go through phases where their legs exaggerate hip adduction kind of comically before they figure out the balance. I think you can overcook it like anything, but some people do seem to have trouble ever getting the rear leg to counterbalance in even if they manage more tilted axis in their move. They still kind of leave the trailing leg dangling back for some reason.

I would forewarn that it would be very easy to use this move to compensate for the lack of a tilted axis of balance and sequence issues rather than the more natural and efficient move. We see that happen too.

Ideally the rear leg ends up deweighted naturally following the tilted axis into the plant without overcooking the adduction/low effort.

Edit: I also just remembered how I learned the same in hammer time. I needed to exaggerate the rear leg hip adduction at first. See also Sidewinder's Turbo Encabulator in his next post. I had to hit the bag to understand how it accelerates the move into the hit/release and then I could tone the exaggeration down later:



When I was working on this, I caught on film the first time I accidentally punched a hole in my bag and understood part of where "snap factor" comes from due to tilted balance + rear leg counter. The arm feels like it's flying forward on its own. Arm itself adds to the move as it exits the pocket always building on the momentum:

 

[sidewinder22]

Vids timestamped:

 

[ThrowaEnvy]

I frigging hate training props... even if Suzanne Summers does the training video.

Just NO.

I guess I should watch the video and then see if I have an intellectual comment to make.

 

[Brychanus]

(view top to bottom)

I frigging hate training props... even if Suzanne Summers does the training video.

Just NO.

 

[ThrowaEnvy]

Fine the hammer is alright, my friend had one he'd picked up at a garage sale called Thor... it always struck my wrong. @Brychanus if you start peddling a thighmaster the world is f*Ed. I almost considered the flightowel since it also works as a towel but have spent no money to date

And furthermore f your towel, hitchhikers told me I needed one and they weren't totally wrong but snap your wrist like you are snapping a towel is the most overused and repeated advice of the late 90s .. if they had only told me my arm was the towel, not just "snap the towel"

Now you done it...

[Portuguese, badly...]
You wouldn't like me when I'm hungry..

 

[Jaani]

I love it when content gets judged before watching it. No, I don't sell you the thighmaster. The move is just a comparison to a thighmaster, which, of course is pointed to be AGE OLD INFORMATION that everybody knew already.

 

[Brychanus]

I love it when content gets judged before watching it. No, I don't sell you the thighmaster. The move is just a comparison to a thighmaster, which, of course is pointed to be AGE OLD INFORMATION that everybody knew already.

Hey man, thanks for popping in. Hopefully I understood your intent and gave it a fair shake above!

 

[Jaani]

My Meme game dates back to when people talked about Barney at the playground.

 

[ThrowaEnvy]

I had a quick watch this morning, interesting take on it, i get a feel kind of like that but this level of brace mechanics is above my skill level. No offense intended @Jaani it was my semi regular Friday night drunk fest and i didnt have a TV to yell at. jaa

 

[ThrowaEnvy]

@Brychanus

 

[Jaani]

No problem.

I think it's a super simple move, but of course everything is once you know it. One thing I sometimes (read: every time) forget is I'm physically so active that the muscles are used to working in sync even if I don't try to move them, which makes the above mentioned thigh master moves and such quite simple add-ons to my existing form.

Curiously enough the move is claimed to have been "invented" and taught for years by Seabass, but no one else seems to have heard of this before. I know I hadn't.

 

[Brychanus]

No problem.

I think it's a super simple move, but of course everything is once you know it. One thing I sometimes (read: every time) forget is I'm physically so active that the muscles are used to working in sync even if I don't try to move them, which makes the above mentioned thigh master moves and such quite simple add-ons to my existing form.

Curiously enough the move is claimed to have been "invented" and taught for years by Seabass, but no one else seems to have heard of this before. I know I hadn't.

I think that's mostly because he encodes it in the context of the overall move in balance (emphasizes it as an effect or result of other actions).

Seabas/Sidewinder can speak for himself, but FWIW I would find it strange if anyone had invented most of these concepts inasmuch as noticed and discovered them and tried to share them with various people. People were moving like this for years whether or not it was being taught. Sidewinder prefers to encode all of his motion theory and instruction under a more general theory of how locomotion, weight shifting, and balance work. You have your version, he has his

 

[Jaani]

This is what I think separates my version from Seabass'; may he claim the ownership of it as much as he wants:

As I see in the GIFs posted above, the Seabass move is nothing more than letting the momentum continue sideways until the back leg hits the front. That is not the ThighMaster move, which happens by contracting the muscles in the front leg, especially the inner thigh (and this is the first time I endorse muscle work in any move). I'm telling you to PULL the back leg to hit the front leg, not just swing it gently. I want it to be abrupt and fast.

When it comes to owning knowledge, I think it's all in the public domain. I'm fine as long as people get the information wherever they find it easier to absorb. Our sandbox is too small to fight over toys.

 

[Brychanus]

I think it's a super simple move, but of course everything is once you know it. One thing I sometimes (read: every time) forget is I'm physically so active that the muscles are used to working in sync even if I don't try to move them, which makes the above mentioned thigh master moves and such quite simple add-ons to my existing form.

Also just wanted to acknowledge that this is a big deal and part of the general issue when people try to go "shopping around" among form or coaching points. Almost every single thing I've seen worth repeating (IMHO) requires context to understand, and a part of understanding is already knowing how to move in one way or another. There are a number of real things to disagree or ask further questions about, but a fairly big percentage of the problem is people seeing things without conceptual or motor context and talking past one another (or just arguing if they're talking at all). I'm very sympathetic to what you say here. I myself am alarmed at things I 'knew' a year or two ago that suddenly work much better for me, or I understand them better suddenly only when my body is ready to learn them. Everyone has a different history and future.

This is what I think separates my version from Seabass'; may he claim the ownership of it as much as he wants:

As I see in the GIFs posted above, the Seabass move is nothing more than letting the momentum continue sideways until the back leg hits the front. That is not the ThighMaster move, which happens by contracting the muscles in the front leg, especially the inner thigh (and this is the first time I endorse muscle work in any move). I'm telling you to PULL the back leg to hit the front leg, not just swing it gently. I want it to be abrupt and fast.

When it comes to owning knowledge, I think it's all in the public domain. I'm fine as long as people get the information wherever they find it easier to absorb. Our sandbox is too small to fight over toys.

***Edit: I should also mention that I am always willing to take this stuff offline/privately if you're interested. No need to make it about putting people "on blast," I just care about the contents and concepts.

Thanks again here @Jaani, I'm glad you followed up about the content. Having higher than average familiarity with his concepts & the marketplace, I can elaborate a bit. Please recall that my own goal is to have cordial conversations about content. I do not care where the ideas come from and find "ownership" a strange concept in the first place. I am an academic so I do value acknowledging sources and truth-seeking when possible, and am familiar with many of the challenges in doing both. I also agree that the sandbox is too small to fight over toys (and especially when there remains so little money to be had) so please generally perceive my tone as conversational and curious (which is usually my intent).

I agree this is a real point of potential disagreement, at least in the extreme. FWIW/IMHO, hip adduction is involved in walking in sequence in good posture. I think you two both would probably agree there too.

Part of where I suspect Sidewinder might disagree is the (1) relative posture and sequence in tilted balance used to get there which he would point out is (2) directly related to how much you need to exaggerate the hip adduction to have the rear leg come in behind. I believe part of these disagreements often emerge in part from differences in how different throwers/instructors learned to move, or think they move. In that case, a point of disagreement may be related to a difference in your own moves where Sidewinder's has more of an emphasis on a "north-south" tilted axis (and possibly West-East, but I'm simplifying) in his own balance and instruction than your own, which also means that the mechanics for how much hip adduction is required for the rear leg to counterbalance in behind will differ (regardless of the size of the move or its absolute posture, strangely). I am somewhat comfortable pointing out this distinction because I have spent so much time attempting to learn and decode balance and compared hundreds of movements with and without an emphasis on balance, and IMHO there remain some major disagreements in emphasis or fundamentals in the space of people trying to teach right now.

The reason I had no problem with your cue from a coaching perspective is that whatever anyone things about the above, it has its role, and I already mentioned that I had to learn to do a version of it myself before circling back around to other things. I believe I have also publicly acknowledged things I like about your instruction, so hopefully you took this as nothing but an attempt at a constructive conversation.

 

[Brychanus]

I had a quick watch this morning, interesting take on it, i get a feel kind of like that but this level of brace mechanics is above my skill level. No offense intended @Jaani it was my semi regular Friday night drunk fest and i didnt have a TV to yell at. jaa

Hey dude, I get it. Here's what I yell at sometimes. I'll share it with you next time we are both without a TV ;-)

 

[jupiterboy]

Hoping for some clear skies tonight so I can do some star peeping.

And I'll also suggest that Ms. Somers has things to say about life in general, not just disc golf.

 

[sidewinder22]

Curiously enough the move is claimed to have been "invented" and taught for years by Seabass, but no one else seems to have heard of this before. I know I hadn't.

This is what I think separates my version from Seabass'; may he claim the ownership of it as much as he wants:

As I see in the GIFs posted above, the Seabass move is nothing more than letting the momentum continue sideways until the back leg hits the front. That is not the ThighMaster move, which happens by contracting the muscles in the front leg, especially the inner thigh (and this is the first time I endorse muscle work in any move). I'm telling you to PULL the back leg to hit the front leg, not just swing it gently. I want it to be abrupt and fast.

When it comes to owning knowledge, I think it's all in the public domain. I'm fine as long as people get the information wherever they find it easier to absorb. Our sandbox is too small to fight over toys.

You asked in your vid if people thought it was a gimmick, and I only posted to lend some credence to what you were teaching, not start some internet fight. I wasn't bragging and never claimed to have invented anything or say that you stole anything. Not sure where you are inferring that from?

The second part of the Hershyzer Wall Drill - kicking the wall would be impossible with momentum alone, and without hip adduction happening. The first part of the Hershyzer Wall Drill is teaching the hip abduction part first(in the order it happens during a throw), and then the hip adduction in the part second, it's a reciprocal thing like walking, running, speed skating, bowling, slalom skiing. Feldberg and Climo talked about the trail leg kick before I ever did, and probably someone else before them.

In Turbo Encabulator "Ride the Bull" drill I'm literally squeezing the billiards stick between my thighs like a thighmaster and I'm talking about creating Internal Torque throughout the body (which would include hip adduction) that puts you more upright and creates a very sudden pressure shift. Momentum alone won't do that. The cue of "Riding the Bull" is squeezing your thighs into the bull so that you don't get bucked or thrown off it. When you shift in Ride the Bull the whole trailside is adducting inward toward your center and frontside. The opposite of Riding the Bull is the Immoveable Horsestance where the rear leg is deadweight hanging back away from your center and frontside and the upper body tips over the front leg.






Reverse Stride Drill is literal hip adduction:


Here I talked about squeezing(adducting) the trailing leg into the frontside like riding a bull...

That is the correct feel, the rear femur rotates forward underneath the pelvis and shin rotates facing down/heel up foot eversion from the instep driving everything from the ground up and blocking the lower spine upright on the braced front femur creating internal torque or squeeze between the thighs to the torso/arm/disc. It's like riding a twirling bucking bull and holding upright on to the bull by squeezing the trailing leg into the bull or your front side.

What you see below in red is the guy being thrown off the bull with the legs separating and spine tipping over as the lower spine sways back out away from the target/front side, the front side posture has collapsed. You should be getting more upright into the finish extending the front side angles to whip the arm/disc through.

 

[Jaani]

You know Seabass, it's really hard to know what your intentions are and messages mean when, most the time, you don't reply with words but only gifs and embedded videos. That leaves a lot for interpretation. And for me, it comes off a bit arrogant to not communicate with full sentences or words. Maybe it's just me, dunno.

Anyway.

I still don't believe we talk exactly about the same move, though yours seem very good. I have tried and squeezed my legs together in the walk up but I never learned that and it felt restrictive. ThighMaster is done at the moment of plant only, so you can still walk relaxed, but also PULL the momentum forward as the plant hits the ground.

 

[Nick Carroll]

You asked in your vid if people thought it was a gimmick, and I only posted to lend some credence to what you were teaching, not start some internet fight. I wasn't bragging and never claimed to have invented anything or say that you stole anything. Not sure where you are inferring that from?

Usually it's from the YT comments. From what I understand Jaani isn't trying to start some sort of internet fight. People tend to attribute things to you and others, who didn't originate the information, but may have popularized it. I know you don't have the time to read everything that's said about you online, but in my experience people tend to outsize what you do, that you aren't even attempting to claim credit for yourself. The problem we all face is there's a wealth of information - much of it wrong - and even attribution can be wrong, too. (unintentionally)