Tourney Division vs Fee

[14506]

I'm all for trophy only divisions in the am ranks.Touring ams?! You kidding me, I think it's a crime the PDGA promotes a divisional system and pay out that encourages mediocrity, it's completely ridiculous that a player can show up to a filled tournament of 90 players, beat 75 of them and walk away with nothing while some of those players he shot better than will walk away with stacks of plastic that will be traded and sold in the parking for large amounts of cash, all bc they are "ams."

Disc golf is the only endeavor I have participated in that ams expect great rewards for not even playing that well. I am going to encourage my club to hand out just trophies for all am divisions. There will be a low entry fee, a free lunch, and each am will get a nice player's pack at the start then you are competing for a trophy, that's it.

If you want to compete for monetary gains get better and move up, this may sound harsh but I also feel this way regarding the Pro Masters division. Why have yet another division where the scores from each are comparable? When I was a TD, the only way I found to fight master bagging was to have a lower entry fee and no added cash, all this lead to a smaller purse which lead to many master aged players playing where they belonged, open.

 

[skinner21]

I think the main reason why ams expect to be rewarded is because that is what we have been taught to expect. It would be a total culture shock to the DG community to eliminate the plastic prizes. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that I'm totally hardcore for or against it just giving a reason as to why this idea is met with resistence.

I am very inexperienced when it comes to tournaments so I don't know what the payouts ussually are, but maybe if the prizes were lowered so that an am only won a disc or two maybe that would serve the same purpose as eliminating the prize plastic all together and more people would play in the Open division. I mean if ams are winning 10+ discs I think that is a little much, unless it is a really large tournament. JMHO

 

[biscoe]

So to please the masses, couldn't there be an option to play for a reduced entry fee and not take a payout?

we have offered trophy only option to ams at the loriella challenge since before the pdga supposedly came up with the idea- it has never been very popular. this may be because our entry fees are pretty reasonable to begin with or may be because the players simply don't dig it. imo the concentration should be more on the value players get from an event (which is measured in different ways for different events) with the market deciding which events are truly providing said value. since all of our events in spotsy fill up every year i suspect we are providing fair value.

 

[Omega SuperSloth]

I'm all for trophy only divisions in the am ranks.Touring ams?! You kidding me, I think it's a crime the PDGA promotes a divisional system and pay out that encourages mediocrity, it's completely ridiculous that a player can show up to a filled tournament of 90 players, beat 75 of them and walk away with nothing while some of those players he shot better than will walk away with stacks of plastic that will be traded and sold in the parking for large amounts of cash, all bc they are "ams."

Disc golf is the only endeavor I have participated in that ams expect great rewards for not even playing that well. I am going to encourage my club to hand out just trophies for all am divisions. There will be a low entry fee, a free lunch, and each am will get a nice player's pack at the start then you are competing for a trophy, that's it.

If you want to compete for monetary gains get better and move up, this may sound harsh but I also feel this way regarding the Pro Masters division. Why have yet another division where the scores from each are comparable? When I was a TD, the only way I found to fight master bagging was to have a lower entry fee and no added cash, all this lead to a smaller purse which lead to many master aged players playing where they belonged, open.

thats sounds baddass , all i want is some competition and not have to pay 40-50 bucks for discs i dont want anyway.

 

[skinner21]

Like always, it's going to come down to money. TD's can get away with high fees because they get discs at wholesale and give away enough to justify said fee. meanwhile that money goes to the Open players or other tournament expences, so in a way, everybody wins because we are "advancing the sport". Even though I still lose $50 for playing

 

[DavidSauls]

Like always, it's going to come down to money. TD's can get away with high fees because they get discs at wholesale and give away enough to justify said fee. meanwhile that money goes to the Open players or other tournament expences, so in a way, everybody wins because we are "advancing the sport". Even though I still lose $50 for playing

That's entirely true, but only part of the equation.

The structure also exists because players want it. Not all players, not me, but most. They like the payouts. They like gambling. And low-fee, low-payout or no-payout-to-Am events generally draw fewer players than higher-fee, high-payout to Am events. There are exceptions, of course, but they are just exceptions.

The PDGA, as a member-run organization, is guilty of doing what the members want.

 

[Omega SuperSloth]

Like always, it's going to come down to money. TD's can get away with high fees because they get discs at wholesale and give away enough to justify said fee. meanwhile that money goes to the Open players or other tournament expences, so in a way, everybody wins because we are "advancing the sport". Even though I still lose $50 for playing

Do these tourneys really advance the sport though?
it may seem like a big deal to the people in the tourney but theyre the only ones for the most part that know its going on. Alot, maybe a majority of the dgers in the area dont even know about these tourneys, and only realize something went on cause the fairways are all rutted up and the teeboxes are all dug out.

Are they making pro players more legitamate as far as beeing actual pros and making a living , yes ,well some of them. But do they really grow the sport if knowone knows about them outside the people who play in tourneys on a regular basis? I was watching a vid and in the middle of 3 world champs teeing off some ladies go jogging by and THEY wait for the joggers. It made me realize even more that its still a bunch of grown men playing with frisbees , and itll always be that way , well always be just those silly "hippies" playing in the woods.

To someone walking by climo or feldburg is no different than us, dg wil never be important to the people who dont play it and thats ok with me cause its important to me . But i think its time some people start getting over them selves and realize their just playing a silly little game.

 

[skinner21]

you're right to a certain extent. We are not playing a big sport, nor do I expect DG to be one anytime soon, but the more we can do to get more people playing the tournaments the better, IMO. And if that means giving out plastic that entices more ams to play as well as more pros to play with the bigger purses that awarding plastic brings, then so be it. Maybe one day this will be big, maybe not. but we have to start somewhere.

and with all the crap they put on tv nowadays (ping pong, lumberjacks, the outdoor games, curling, cycling, soccer ) I don't think it's crazy to think that one day DG will be televised at some point. Maybe not on ESPN, but that's why there are 500+ channels.

 

[rlangton]

I'm only there for the competition. I could care less if I win or what I win, as long as I'm playing the best I think I can. I always play a division higher than I should be in also because I think I learn the game better that way. Who cares about people who sandbag for merch? Whatever. If you really think $100 profit for a day or two is changing the world for anybody... meh. You can nearly make that much working at McDonalds, and that's guaranteed payout. Payouts and costs are fine the way they are..

 

[Omega SuperSloth]

at some point though you can "price yourself out of the market". What i mean is sometimes you can make more money buy selling stuff cheaper and selling more units.

 

[Omega SuperSloth]

I'm only there for the competition. I could care less if I win or what I win, as long as I'm playing the best I think I can. I always play a division higher than I should be in also because I think I learn the game better that way. Who cares about people who sandbag for merch? Whatever. If you really think $100 profit for a day or two is changing the world for anybody... meh. You can nearly make that much working at McDonalds, and that's guaranteed payout. Payouts and costs are fine the way they are..

the payout and entries might be fine now but they will only keep going up until they push ams out all together whether thats the plan or not. And in the long run that would be what is best for the sport anyway, its dosnt make since to have ams and pros in the same tourneys (except for pro/ams)

 

[rlangton]

the payout and entries might be fine now but they will only keep going up until they push ams out all together whether thats the plan or not. And in the long run that would be what is best for the sport anyway, its dosnt make since to have ams and pros in the same tourneys (except for pro/ams)

I don't disagree with splitting up the Pro/AM tourneys... aren't a lot of them done like this already? (the bigger ones anyways)

 

[DavidSauls]

If the Ams get priced out and stop showing up, at least in large numbers, the TDs will drop the prices.

If it gets out-of-hand---and I mean to most people, since to me it already has---someone will come along and offer low-cost events, either sanctioned or non-sanctioned.

It's a pretty free market for anyone who wants to run tournaments and demonstrate a better way. Even if PDGA-sanctioned, there's lots of freedom in divisions offered, payouts, etc.

 

[DavidSauls]

I don't disagree with splitting up the Pro/AM tourneys... aren't a lot of them done like this already? (the bigger ones anyways)

Just a few. Pro-only tournaments is a losing proposition.

 

[biscoe]

i've been playing for almost 15 years and am tourney prices have only gone up marginally in that time. pro prices went up more but have subsided to a degree.

 

[Keokuk Discer]

In all honesty guys, I wouldn't mind going to a single Am division structure

Remember back to the time when you first started playing. You probably didn't do all that good compared to many of the others. Now imagine that you went to your first tournament and were told you had to compete with a lot of people that could be playing Pro, but preferred to stay in AM. Now imagine that you went told by these guys that you would have to wait about 2 to 5 years before you could even think of "cashing" in any tournament.

That would be enough to stop anyone from wanting to play tournaments. The different Am divisions help funnel new players upward into ever more competitive divisions until the day they make the decision to either go Pro or stay in AMs.

 

[TalbotTrojan]

Remember back to the time when you first started playing. You probably didn't do all that good compared to many of the others. Now imagine that you went to your first tournament and were told you had to compete with a lot of people that could be playing Pro, but preferred to stay in AM. Now imagine that you went told by these guys that you would have to wait about 2 to 5 years before you could even think of "cashing" in any tournament.

That would be enough to stop anyone from wanting to play tournaments. The different Am divisions help funnel new players upward into ever more competitive divisions until the day they make the decision to either go Pro or stay in AMs.

Well put. This is the reason the system will not and should not change.

 

[scarpfish]

Remember back to the time when you first started playing. You probably didn't do all that good compared to many of the others. Now imagine that you went to your first tournament and were told you had to compete with a lot of people that could be playing Pro, but preferred to stay in AM. Now imagine that you went told by these guys that you would have to wait about 2 to 5 years before you could even think of "cashing" in any tournament.

That would be enough to stop anyone from wanting to play tournaments. The different Am divisions help funnel new players upward into ever more competitive divisions until the day they make the decision to either go Pro or stay in AMs.

This is what you quoted me as saying:

In all honesty guys, I wouldn't mind going to a single Am division structure.

And this is what I actually said, note the part in red boldface that you edited out which completely changes the context of my quote.

In all honesty guys, I wouldn't mind going to a single Am division structure and just give Ams a huge player's pack which includes a tourney stamped disc, mini, T-shirt, voucher for more merch which they can redeem at their leisure. The Memorial has been doing this for the past couple years and I don't think its hurt attendance any. I'm not sure your local B-tier/C-tier/unsanctioned event could get away with that though.

It would also get everyone on the road that much faster if people didn't have to spend a half hour pilfering through merch. Yet another reason why I'd rather play up and donate.

Hence, 56th place walks home with as much swag as 1st place, sans maybe a trophy and some recognition at the awards ceremony. The TD still gets to turn over the same amount of merch as he would in a payout event. Players can grab their plastic at the start of a tournament and use it if they wish. Nobody has to wait until near dusk for cashing Ams to pilfer through bins of discs.

And yeah, I don't think it would work either, because we have too many Ams more concerned with acquiring discounted plastic than improving their skills.

 

[TalbotTrojan]

Hence, 56th place walks home with as much swag as 1st place, sans maybe a trophy and some recognition at the awards ceremony. The TD still gets to turn over the same amount of merch as he would in a payout event. Players can grab their plastic at the start of a tournament and use it if they wish. Nobody has to wait until near dusk for cashing Ams to pilfer through bins of discs.

And yeah, I don't think it would work either, because we have too many Ams more concerned with acquiring discounted plastic than improving their skills.

I have seen this in one event that I have played in so far and I was pleased, however, if I had won the event I might feel slighted. I think it is better for the TD or whoever is giving the discounts to the AM players for merch as they then have the whole AM field looking through their bins at whatever point in time they choose. It does mean more money coming in for them though they have to give out a bigger discount.

 

[Keokuk Discer]

And this is what I actually said, note the part in red boldface that you edited out which completely changes the context of my quote.


Hence, 56th place walks home with as much swag as 1st place, sans maybe a trophy and some recognition at the awards ceremony. The TD still gets to turn over the same amount of merch as he would in a payout event. Players can grab their plastic at the start of a tournament and use it if they wish. Nobody has to wait until near dusk for cashing Ams to pilfer through bins of discs.

And yeah, I don't think it would work either, because we have too many Ams more concerned with acquiring discounted plastic than improving their skills.

My point is that we would start losing players because they wouldn't feel that they could compete. That is why I edited it like I did. I could care less whether I got a player's packet or not, but I would walk if I had to compete with players who throw like pros, and it would take me 2 to 5 years just to place in a tournament. That is what having all AMs in one division would do. I prefer the funnel effect we have with the divisions now.

Or would you prefer to win a tournament with 20 people who have no business competing against you? Or let them have the option to compete against people that are closer to their ability level?