Typically the creative players are less skilled

[optidiscic]

A course designer is unhappy that people aren't throwing the shots he wants.

not really

 

[goosefraba1]

I believe in giving the player Options, rather than forcing a shot. I agree with Mr. Sauls on this point.

However, I believe what the OP was referring to is players possibly cutting their own routes.... and breaking branches, etc, so that they can throw "their" shot.

 

[optidiscic]

Options are good if there is risk reward but not good if both shots yield similiar risk or reward imgo

 

[JC17393]

I gotta agree with opti here. I'm kind of baffled at how/why people are misreading what he's saying.

I get what he's saying.

It's weak sauce for players to bitch about holes on which they have to play with finesse or play against their strengths to succeed (call it the Avery ), but by the same token, it's weak sauce for a designer to bitch about a player who forces his preferred throw and succeeds in "beating" the hole. If a player can succeed in playing a hole in a way unintended by the design, then perhaps the design isn't good enough...yet.

I had an argument with a course owner/designer once when he saw me throw up and over on a hole in which his design intent was to have players throw through a tunnel straight ahead. I had two things going for me on this hole that he clearly didn't account for when he created the hole...being left-handed and having the power to get over the top of the trees. He told me I was cheating. I told him that if he moved the tee up 15 feet, I'd lose the angle to get over the trees and would have to play the tunnel as he intended. No need for mandos or special rules, just a 15 foot tweak.

Am I an unimaginative player in that situation or was he a short-sighted and/or unimaginative designer that he didn't think to account for a lefty like me in his design?

 

[Peter S]

I feel like giant hyzer over everything is the least creative disc golf shot.

But I still love to do it. Especially as a lefty with a card full of righties going another direction because they did not even notice something on the left side I may see.

 

[ru4por]

I'm at a loss to the point of this thread?

Is it just me?

Nope, not just you. I strive to spend as little energy as possible worrying about what others are doing, throwing or choosing. I am looking for the best shot on the best route to the pin for the lowest possible score. Wish it worked out for me more often.

 

[Peter S]

A course designer is unhappy that people aren't throwing the shots he wants.

The "anti-thumber net" There is one at some course in N.C. that escapes me at the moment.

 

[rhatton1]

But I still love to do it. Especially as a lefty with a card full of righties going another direction because they did not even notice something on the left side I may see.

This is what I don't get about the thread. I love throwing hyzerbombs over stuff. I love finding other lines BH FH and overarm, I love holes where I am forced to play them a certain way - I love all sorts of shots and want to have each one tested a few times by a course.I generally love throwing discs and finding different flight patterns and ways to play holes

If I am playing the course in competition though I am going to go for the percentage option everytime and if the designer has left me with a RHBH hyzer line over the top without increasing risk for this shot then why would I not take it? there are numerous ways to raise risk for these shots to put a bit of thought in the mind of the player. To call a player less skilled because the designer left an easier route available with no risk to a longer thrower is an odd deflection of blame.

 

[notroman]

Anti-thumber net is on hole 17 at Winthrop Gold.

 

[notroman]

If I am playing the course in competition though I am going to go for the percentage option everytime and if the designer has left me with a RHBH hyzer line over the top without increasing risk for this shot then why would I not take it?

Why do you mean why? If you take the cheater hyzer route then you prove that you have no skill. What's more important to you? A lower score or impressing the course designer? opcorn:

 

[Streets]

Anti-thumber net is on hole 17 at Winthrop Gold.

Fascists.

 

[rhatton1]

A course designer is unhappy that people aren't throwing the shots he wants.

The "anti-thumber net" There is one at some course in N.C. that escapes me at the moment.

Lolz, this reminds me of when we carved out the new woods holes at Quarry Park. They were left to begin with as very narrow tunnels as it was still new woods so we wanted to see how they would grow up(still are narrow but they were even narrower back then) myself and a friend realised very quickly that our percentage shot was a tiny 2 foot wide thumber window up and over, that pretty much no one else had spotted (I designed the hole and hadn't seen this gap until we were playing it regularly). We were getting lots of 3's where everyone else was pinballing 6's or worse until the day before the first competition of the year we stupidly played the course with Del the course owner. The next morning starting on that hole I arrived to find a net of freshly cut branches tied right across the gap.... Never find a shot the course owner can't throw

 

[biscoe]

There is one particular instance on the courses I have designed where this occurs- on hole 14 at Loriella a thumber route I did not intend has become the preference for a lot of players off the tee. Were the tee not permanent I would move it back 15 feet or so and take away the route. I will not add a mando to force my preferred shot. It is not the fault of the players for playing the route that they consider the best chance of scoring well. It is "oopsie" on me as the designer for not having figured it out beforehand. Sometimes real world results aren't the same as our expectations.

 

[grotto]

I'm one of those so called "lesser" players. I'm old and I don't have the arm to park 450' par 3's so I have to be "creative" and play placement shots so I have an easier approach shot.

My creativity in being able to navigate a course that I can't play as intended I see as a real advantage. I know how many of my discs will fly other than initially intended. My accuracy has improved greatly because I know how to snake my Eagle through trees or roll a Panther in the woods.

But I'm having fun, so sue me.

 

[Noill]

Anti-thumber net is on hole 17 at Winthrop Gold.

sounds totally legit to me to do this from the desinger's perspective and as a player I totally respect it as well... to me it is just adding a canopy... I don't think natural or man-made makes a difference in any way

I feel like giant hyzer over everything is the least creative disc golf shot.

I'd say this is true too IMO but I don't begrudge those who do it...

As a single-course designer, I agree with Opti's sentiment. I've been known to rail against the thumberers once or twice. But where people successfully attack a hole with a different throw than I expected, the honest truth is that:

Creative = sees something we failed to see

Sometimes we live with it, sometimes we tweak holes to make those options less appealing. And sometimes we admire the creativity. (We've never yet resorted to a mando to force a route, though.)

I think the point of "forcing players to play the way we designed" isn't telling people what kind of game to have. That's focusing on a single hole. We look at an entire course, and hope we've designed it where players need all kinds of shots, on different holes, to succeed. So if that includes 2 hyzer-flips and 2 straight tunnels, and the creative players manage to circumvent those, it's back to the drawing board.

Then again, if enough people are "creatively" avoiding the intended route, we have to reconsider whether the intended route is as good as we thought it was going to be.

This post makes a lot of sense... it still seems to be missing something but it's so close to accurate IMO that it is worth re-posting...
Designers may miss something and when exposed they should address it if they want to... course design is rarely if ever completed I'm guessing... design evolution should be challenged by "creative" shots... take what you have learned and consider a solution to it. Sometimes the creative shot will be amazing and actually a testament to player skill... other times it will have a "cheater" feel and that gap should be filled with thought and evaluation.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-a demarcation=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Maybe I missed it but did the OP mention a specific hole where this is an issue or is this just a designer-rant in general?

 

[Noill]

I'll add in that I've seen holes that had unfairways and the intended routes are horrid design... in that case, thumber, huge hyzer, or whatever is more than a fair way to handle the hole... I've seen plenty of these out there that just aren't as cool as the designer thought

so, in some cases, creativity is spurred on by poor design... in others it can be that a line is there that the designer didn't notice (note: most designers play a hole over and over and invite others to as well to test the hole... not every route may be discovered even with this due diligence).

 

[DiscDraft]

I like this post. I recently read a review of stafford lake where a person just badmouthed two holes that I personally love to throw, 5 and 7. The badmouthing I am referring to was mild and suggested that these were filler holes, or just impossible birdies (relying on luck to birdie). I like these challenges.

The reason I play the game is for challenge. If I could birdie everything, I'd be bored.

 

[DriveCrusher2]

Course Designer Rant

There is a battle on many courses between designers attempts to test a specific skill/line/shot and lesser players choosing to hack a so called creative line due to their inability to navigate the straightforward designed shot off the tee

Be honest creative players you really just have not developed your game

2 words - Simon Lizotte

Now to discuss your hatred, I apologize for your jealousy towards us. I think that it actually makes us better. We see 6,7,8....etc lines to the basket when you see 1 line and say yea I'm great! Did a creative player beat you in a tourney? Is that why you are butt hurt? Sorry I am a creative player myself and see lines other people don't even think about. There are 3 different lines to every hole almost on average, it's just who can place it there consistently and get the birdie. I don't think it's because these people can do it, I think it is because you can't and you are angry you can't because you probably tried and failed. Why is this even a thread or discussion? Someone whining about how someone else plays? For real? Bashing them for it? Someone that throws and follows the design, great for you! Good job man! Is that what you wanted a pat on the back? Shall we talk about people who think outside box? Michael Jordan was a creative basketball player, but I guess he wasn't very skilled either. You wanna blow smoke, go smoke a dart. Take your baby tears someplace else.

 

[Streets]

Big Jerm talks about finding multiple ways of getting to a basket.

 

[lazy cake]

Ashe County Park, hole 16 has a net as well.