Typically the creative players are less skilled

[ohtobediscing]

#7 at Hiller Park was designed to be a left-to-right dogleg under low oaks. Even with a mando sign there, it wasn't long before the RHBHers were throwing giant hyzers in the open space to the right. Fortunately the park funded a tree-planting, so in a few years this lane will be eliminated.

I think the problem here, opti, was in your attempting to use "creative" as a negative quality.

 

[riltim]

I'm pretty sure Opti is talking about someone calling themselves creative when trying to force a 10% chance RHBH throw through some tight woods when there is a clear 80% chance RHFH line. Learn the shot don't try to force the line.

 

[grotto]

I like the Big Jerm video.

 

[DG_Before_Breakfast]

This is a really esoteric conversation. I'm having a hard time seeing the point. My favorite holes definitely have more than one option, but usually there is one option that is better if you have that shot in your arsenal. Certainly is less challenging if every hole starts with a RHBH fade drive. When I first started out, I hated every hole that was too far, too hard, had a crazy tunnel, required a massive hyzer, a long forehand or had a basket on the edge of a cliff. But now I appreciate all those challenges. Thanks course designers for thinking about this stuff, putting all the effort in, and doing your best to make it fun.

 

[Peter S]

Ashe County Park, hole 16 has a net as well.

That was it. I love that course.

 

[Peter S]

But I still love to do it. Especially as a lefty with a card full of righties going another direction because they did not even notice something on the left side I may see.

When I do "cheet over the top" I make myself laugh as I wonder what would Simon do here if he was lefty

 

[Thumber]

I enjoy circumventing poor designs with a pin point thumber. That said, I get what Opti is saying. If I went out and tried to thumber every single hole, it would be unimaginative plus my arm would fall off.

I have been able to take courses apart and win tournaments using alot of thumbers though. It not my fault the designers never elevated their eyes or considered alternatives to what they thought players would throw. I like when I step up to a tee and look at all the options. A well designed hole and tee placement rewards creative shot making, but heavily punishes failure.

I know that if I throw a decent backhand straight up the gut I'll have a decent chance to make my par. But if I can thread that little gap with a high power thumber I can get a bidie. If I miss the backhand I am still likely in good shape. If I miss the thumber I am deep deep shule. Risk / Reward

 

[Flip Hyzerman]

Have you EVER watched Simon lizotte throw?

I think this is the perfect example of trying to have 'fun' in a tourney versus throwing the shot likely to result in the lowest score. If I were Paul, I'd encourage Simon to throw all those 'creative, fun, super entertaining' lines at every possible opportunity - Simon has cost himself money with poor mental game and focus.

 

[ohtobediscing]

I'm pretty sure Opti is talking about someone calling themselves creative when trying to force a 10% chance RHBH throw through some tight woods when there is a clear 80% chance RHFH line. Learn the shot don't try to force the line.

I'm pretty sure I understood what opti was talking about---he should have written it "creative" to show it was their words, not his.
Read post #80. Throwers aren't forcing the non-course intended line---its wide open. Thus, BAD design. And they're fixing it with new plantings.

 

[riltim]

I'm pretty sure I understood what opti was talking about---he should have written it "creative" to show it was their words, not his.
Read post #80. Throwers aren't forcing the non-course intended line---its wide open. Thus, BAD design. And they're fixing it with new plantings.

Sorry, this wasn't directed at you. Just a general comment.

 

[ohtobediscing]

I just think it was an unintended interpretation of what he said that got this going.

 

[ohtobediscing]

I am sometimes disheartened at young'uns who can heave it 60' high and 400' long over every bit of lane-shaping vegetation on the course. The Whine of The Ancient Lefthander.

 

[Dan Ensor]

As a single-course designer, I agree with Opti's sentiment. I've been known to rail against the thumberers once or twice. But where people successfully attack a hole with a different throw than I expected, the honest truth is that:

Creative = sees something we failed to see

Sometimes we live with it, sometimes we tweak holes to make those options less appealing. And sometimes we admire the creativity. (We've never yet resorted to a mando to force a route, though.)

I think the point of "forcing players to play the way we designed" isn't telling people what kind of game to have. That's focusing on a single hole. We look at an entire course, and hope we've designed it where players need all kinds of shots, on different holes, to succeed. So if that includes 2 hyzer-flips and 2 straight tunnels, and the creative players manage to circumvent those, it's back to the drawing board.

Then again, if enough people are "creatively" avoiding the intended route, we have to reconsider whether the intended route is as good as we thought it was going to be.

Very good points.

I think the key is to punish them terribly when their "cheater" route doesn't work, rather than eliminate the route. And put in some hidden traps so it happens more than they think it should.

 

[Noill]

I built a 160' "hyzer" bridge to cross over the wetland area of my course... the pin is over this hyzer route and then keeps going up a hill... so many ppl found a straight route through the trees over the water directly at the pin... I thought of it as a cheater route esp since the hole is so cool throwing over the bridge...

fortunately, the water is seasonal so when it is dry I put in a mando... there must be water to take the "cheater" route

I thought this was a good compromise... I was going to put in a net

honestly, I didn't see this straight route b/c the trees are so pervasive but it is there and isn't as punishing as I'd like it to be... still, if you go for it and wind up getting knocked down into the water don't blame me if I smile

 

[Shuie]

^ OR you just believed that no one would ever make that gap???

 

[DG_Before_Breakfast]

I definitely this it is cool when someone comes up with a line I've never seen. At the Master's Cup last year, Simon chose some crazy routes that the people Delaveaga just had never seen before. In particular, he took a putter on hole 12 and did a anyhyzer backhand to the long position, around this tree everyone usually goes to the right of if they are going for birdie. Something no one had ever seen happen, like ever. Of course, there aren't a lot of people in the world with the distance on their putters to throw that shot either.

This is a web page about that hole. Don Smith talks about the risk/reward on this hole. When he talks about the safe route, that is the route Simon took, only with such crazy any on his putter that it landed next to the basket.

http://delaveagadiscgolf.com/hole-descriptions/hole-12/

Here is the film of Simon doing it at 28:20. Although it is really hard to see, it is just outrageous what he did there...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaRqOXtXUz4

 

[Hampstead]

I like assessing my options and trying multiple routes. There are some holes where I might be the only one trying a certain route. So what? The game is about having fun and having the fewest strokes at the end. I'm really not sorry if my shot selection gives you a mental wedgie.

 

[Jukeshoe]

I built a 160' "hyzer" bridge to cross over the wetland area of my course... the pin is over this hyzer route and then keeps going up a hill... so many ppl found a straight route through the trees over the water directly at the pin... I thought of it as a cheater route esp since the hole is so cool throwing over the bridge...

fortunately, the water is seasonal so when it is dry I put in a mando... there must be water to take the "cheater" route

I thought this was a good compromise... I was going to put in a net

honestly, I didn't see this straight route b/c the trees are so pervasive but it is there and isn't as punishing as I'd like it to be... still, if you go for it and wind up getting knocked down into the water don't blame me if I smile

Jukeshoe: <--Birdies #9 cheater route every time.

Noill: <---Salty about it.

So you're finally admitting #9's poorly designed?!

 

[tbird888]

First post: Take the line I intended
Second post: If you don't take my single intended line, you're a one-trick pony

Sounds like some developers I've worked with who didn't want to build validation into their apps and then complain that the user is stupid because there's text in fields that were intended to house numbers. Way to only focus on the happy path, pal!

 

[Noill]

@tbird... you need validation or the form (or whatever) blows up all the time and then you get helpdesk calls... totally know what you mean

@jukeshoe... you are a one-trick pony

I'm putting up a net :|