What do you think of these tee signs?

[BillFleming]

One possibility would be to completely separate the tee signs for the rec course from the advanced course and have two tee signs posted wherever the advanced and rec course share a tee pad. Maybe that would be clearer.

I've seen Jomez video of one pro tour course that has three baskets on each hole. Each basket has a colored flag and there are three tee signs with one sign for each basket.

Adds to the cost, but I would think there would be less confusion.

I had to look a few times at sign #1 to realize, Reds play from the 'back' tee (marked Red #1, White #1, Blue #1) to the steel basket; and then walk back (red arrow) to the Red #2 tee pad and play to the yellow band basket.

Pretty confusing, but more importantly - unsafe. The Red #2 tee pad is pretty much in direct line from the RWB #1 tee pad to the yellow/blue band baskets.

 

[ChrisWoj]

Is your problem with the text that it's occluded? Or that you just think that text is generally not worth the clutter on a map?

If you can display the text in a more coherent way - it'd be great. But as it is the line over it makes it look rushed, it is difficult to read. Maybe the text "2 Rec" Or something similar near the arrow pointing from the red basket to the red 2 tee, instead of the text by the tee itself?

 

[Rastnav]

Pretty confusing, but more importantly - unsafe. The Red #2 tee pad is pretty much in direct line from the RWB #1 tee pad to the yellow/blue band baskets.

No one is teeing of from #1s tee pad until #2 rec tee pad is clear. It's no different than if that was the short pad for the hole. It is in clear sight 100 feet off the #1 tee. That's not an issue.

I could see the rec layout being an issue for course flow at some point, but we would need to get much busier than we already are. I've seen it back up very slightly at #1 right now if you get to a busy patch, especially if someone starts to play the rec layout as other people show up to play the regular one, but people typically spread themselves out in short order.

 

[Rastnav]

Alright, I think we may be at something fairly workable:

 

[ru4por]

Alright, I think we may be at something fairly workable:

I am still a bit fuzzy on what is going on here. The second sign indicates the rec hole #2 plays to the yellow band, but the sign says it plays to a steel basket.

The second hole plays from the same tee, to the same basket but has individual pars for blue and white? I don't think I have seen two pars for the same hole. Maybe I was not paying attention enough. I don't generally pay attention to par.

 

[ChrisWoj]

Alright, I think we may be at something fairly workable:

If some more holes like that exist you could use some of the white space to warn the red throwers gently to make sure others are aware of them. Every opportunity to remind people to keep their head on a swivel on a confusing layout. A few cards per day is still hundreds per year and there's a chance people do something dumb.

 

[Rastnav]

I am still a bit fuzzy on what is going on here. The second sign indicates the rec hole #2 plays to the yellow band, but the sign says it plays to a steel basket.

The second hole plays from the same tee, to the same basket but has individual pars for blue and white? I don't think I have seen two pars for the same hole. Maybe I was not paying attention enough. I don't generally pay attention to par.

The second sign is just a result of an oversight in changing the words when I copy and pasted. It should say (Yellow Band).

The second hole has normally played as a Par 4, but when they have run tournaments recently, they have played it as a Par 3. Ultimately it will probably get a longer basket or longer tee pad, or both, for the Blue tees. I know Elaine King, and another great course designer whose name is escaping me, have been helping with designing ongoing changes to the course.

In any case, given how tight the lines are, it's a little to tough to be a 3 for the mere mortals, but too soft to be a par 4 for the really good players. That's how you satisfy design guidelines for the various skill levels when you haven't yet been able to change the design of the hole.

 

[Rastnav]

If some more holes like that exist you could use some of the white space to warn the red throwers gently to make sure others are aware of them. Every opportunity to remind people to keep their head on a swivel on a confusing layout. A few cards per day is still hundreds per year and there's a chance people do something dumb.

Yeah, always good advice.

Although, frankly, the rec players aren't in places that anyone playing the regular layout can't get to, so it's pretty much incumbent on the cards behind to be aware of the hole, and the people, in front of them. I'm not really sure how that changes for holes like Rec 1 and 2, or Rec 3 and 4.

Although, because of the Rec layout "skipping" holes, it's probably worth having something separate like that in a few places. After these holes the Rec layout goes from B/W #2 to the tee for B/W #7 (Rec 5/6), then playing a standalone hole (Rec 7) that takes them to the tee for B/W #11 (Rec 8/9). Those two places are where they could jump in front of cards that might be less than fully aware of them. Might be a good idea to post something prominent on the path as they are entering those two tees.

Have to figure out what good wording would be.

 

[HyooMac]

The throwing lines help A LOT! I gave it my "cursory glance test" and it worked well.

The more information, the more opportunity for typos (like the "steel band" on the yellow band issue cited). My advice: make sure you have some other sets of eyes look through every sign when it's ready to go. They will catch 99% of the errors.

Two observations:

If possible, change the terminus of the throwing line into an arrow. The dot implies the end point, whereas an arrow pointing toward the basket makes more sense.

I have never seen lines represent a fairway landing target, the way you do with the white lines on the par 4. I think they're unnecessary, and even a bit confusing because they're so rare. They cross over a line from "here's the hole" to "here's how you should play the hole."

 

[ChrisWoj]

I have never seen lines represent a fairway landing target, the way you do with the white lines on the par 4. I think they're unnecessary, and even a bit confusing because they're so rare. They cross over a line from "here's the hole" to "here's how you should play the hole."

I kind of like the way that the broken line implies a skill level for the thrower. "If you're someone who only reaches this point, the white tees are the set of tees for you." If there's no competitive/tournament scene around the course it could serve as a barometer for newer players that are improving. "I can get to a putt on this basket now, maybe I should be playing the blues on the rest of the tees now..."

 

[mojorooks]

I am still a bit fuzzy on what is going on here. The second sign indicates the rec hole #2 plays to the yellow band, but the sign says it plays to a steel basket.

The second hole plays from the same tee, to the same basket but has individual pars for blue and white? I don't think I have seen two pars for the same hole. Maybe I was not paying attention enough. I don't generally pay attention to par.

I took me a bit too. Essentially there is a smaller "rec" course on top of a bigger course. On the first sign you have 5 holes


Big course:
Hole #1 has 3 options
Tee to red
Tee to blue
Tee to yellow

'rec' course:
Hole #1
Tee to red
Hole #2
rec tee to yellow

 

[mojorooks]

Alright, I think we may be at something fairly workable:

I found the tee pad being 3 colors to be confusing. I didn't realize it was a tee pad at first.

As an idea, 2 signs. One for the full course and one for the recreational. Both signs are completely identical except the full course will have the rec layout faded and the rec sign will have the full course faded.

 

[Rastnav]

I found the tee pad being 3 colors to be confusing. I didn't realize it was a tee pad at first.

As an idea, 2 signs. One for the full course and one for the recreational. Both signs are completely identical except the full course will have the rec layout faded and the rec sign will have the full course faded.

I think frequently tees that have just a single pad and multiple baskets ended being put in white. Given that some times we have multiple pads, and other times multiple baskets, that feels like it could be equally confusing.

Although, with the colored lines this might be completely moot. Simply putting the label by the tee should be enough (I do want to be mindful of those who may be color blind). I'd probably still color the separate rec tee pads red, though, as I think the does provide a good visual cue if someone just walks up to a sign a little oblivious.

I've thought about separate signs, but I have a feeling that this may ultimately just as harmful to some as it is helpful to others. People have a tendency to look at the first thing they see, and only see what they are expecting. People expect a single map on a tee pad, and will tend to look only at that.

I think I'm going to trial this design, maybe grab some people I know haven't played the course and asking them to navigate without my help, and see how they do. Play testing is always the best way to work the kinks out of things anyway.