What's better?

[tom12003]

I maintain (and was the lead builder) a bluish/white fun course that was used in the 2012 Worlds by 560+ AM men. Steve West analyzed the scoring separation (which turned out fairly positive). The longest par 3 is 311'—more like 340' after factoring the slight uphill and trees—but averaged 2.95. Steve discouraged me in making the current holes longer (we designed lengthening options) but it would not change the scoring separation just add an extra throw or 2).

After 6 years of course existence and experience, I've come up with a few tweaks that would allow a decent grip and rip hole that could add to challenge. First, one hole could be combined to make an easy hole (a 234' par 3) into a tough wooded 340' par 3. The other tweak would be to add a new hole that could measure about 520' or so and could be a par 4; longest for this course. The only problem is that after 30+ different test players (assuming all 30' putts being made) most of the 950+ rated players are getting a simple 3, the rest are carding a 4). IT IS A TWEENER! Cannot add another 50' to make this new hole a truer par 4 because of safety issues.

What is better? A 520-535' par 4 or a 425' par 3? Remember this is not a gold course but a bluish-white that caters to the vast majority of casual players.

 

[Keller]

If it's an average course with average players, my vote goes for the 520'-535' par 4. At least the average player has a chance for a birdie here and there.
Most players out there will never birdie a 425' hole unless they throw it in.

 

[tom12003]

If it's an average course with average players, my vote goes for the 520'-535' par 4. At least the average player has a chance for a birdie here and there.
Most players out there will never birdie a 425' hole unless they throw it in.

I've thrown the 520+ hole 12 times; as a less than 800 Legend (over 70 yrs old)--1 birdie, 5 pars, and 7 bogies. It challenges me; a 940 player probably four 3s, four 4s, and four 5s. When I play with Big Jerm I'd expect him to shoot four 2s, four 3s, and four 4s. At 425' par 3, Jerm should be three 2s and ten 3s, but then he is not our normal player

 

[tom12003]

If it's an average course with average players, my vote goes for the 520'-535' par 4. At least the average player has a chance for a birdie here and there.
Most players out there will never birdie a 425' hole unless they throw it in.

The course already is full of birdie opportunities.

 

[Steve West]

I maintain (and was the lead builder) a bluish/white fun course that was used in the 2012 Worlds by 560+ AM men. Steve West analyzed the scoring separation (which turned out fairly positive). ...

Available here: http://www.stevewestdiscgolf.com/Fun_with_Numbers_from.pdf

 

[ThrowaEnvy]

One long hole shouldn't be an issue it will be an asset. I like that you kept stuff short and competitive... My old layout which kinda used some logging roads on the neighbours property gave a distinct advantage to a few people in our local group, there was 4 holes which were a tough two for most players except three guys with a cannon arm, even in doubles it created a massive advantage. 4 out of 18 is a 22% advantage, 1 out of 18 is 5.5% A big birdie will be memorable for the lesser distance players.

It's your course do what you want, on Sunday doubles when they come to my place every two months I like to change it up just to see what people do.. Move a teepad, set up an OB.. Last time I had a reverse OB and put the rotating basket in play, tragically me and the Cali guy were the only ones railed by the rotator.

 

[DavidSauls]

Hard to say. But the long version gives the course some added variety. And par 4s, even tweener 3/4s, have players making that long second shot that they can't groove, like a tee shot, because it's never the same shot twice.

Another thought is, Which is more fun? Scoring separation is important but it's not everything, you know. As long as the scoring separation is at least decent, more fun and greater variety are worth weighing in the calculation.

 

[Steve West]

In the range of 425 and 535 feet, anything can happen. Scores are not very closely tied to length. Here is how it looks for 1000-rated players (Not your target players but I happened to be working on those right now. Similar things happen for Advanced.)

With a broad range of players like you have, there is no way to tune it in to be optimal for everyone.

So, I'd say pick the one that's more fun, prettier, or just the one you'd rather play. You already know what you WANT to do, right?

 

[riltim]

IMHO the main goal of a course designed for the 900-950 rated player should be about skill building, where score separation comes naturally. Force players out of their comfort zone and make them throw a bomber 425' par 3, and then follow it up with a tight and technical anhyzer on a 240' par 3. Or a tight par 4 where if they miss a placement shot off the tee they need to scramble.

My idea of a perfect course is where a 920 rated player can score -5 or +3 depending on how well their game is dialed in for the day.

 

[philstine]

Scoring separation is over-rated. Most fun wins.

 

[Keller]

The course already is full of birdie opportunities.

If you think it's already filed with birdie opportunities, then it seems you already have an idea of what you want, so why bother asking us?:wall:
Stick to the 425' par 3 then.

If your course is for average players, most aren't going to know what a pro par3 is much less having ever seen a pro throw, most probably don't know who that Barry Schultz is on their Beast is and most likely are going to hate a 425' hole.

There is course near me that has 5 400'+ holes and every "average player" I have played with just bitches every time they get to these holes. I personally don't care and I tell them it's all about perspective. I remind them that if it was 360', they wouldn't be parking it either, they usual just grumble.

 

[GripEnemy]

Not a tournament chaser and barely even throw fun rounds anymore.

That said the 500+ par 4. Discs are getting longer, younger people are getting into the game, and nowhere I know of are courses getting shorter (speculation, someone feel free to prove me wrong on course distance). Plus i throw far personally, so "deuce or die" holes are suuuuuper boring. IMO

 

[BrotherDave]

Would rather see the soft par 4 than a hard par 3. The length adds variety and generally speaking 950+ rated guys have better than average hole management skills (like knowing to stay on the fairway if it's a soft par 4) but that's not something a lot of rec and even lots of Blue players are going to do consistently.

You say you can't lengthen the par 4 but can you do anything to spice up the green, like an elevated basket? That might be something to breakout just for tourneys when you really care about good scoring separation.

 

[sjberry2017]

I'd definitely add in the longer hole; if it's possible, you could maybe add in tees or pins for both the 425' par 3 and the 520' par 4, and depending on what pool is out there that day or how you want the course to play you could have either pin. I definitely like the idea of a grip and rip hole though, I feel like every course needs one of those sorts of holes.

 

[PureAngus]

I dont think that casual players are going to be too discouraged by a potential bogey, but what really matters is how the hole plays. If its relatively open and has forgiving landing zones for the drive and second shot, it would probably be more enjoyable as a long par 4. I've played plenty of short par 3s that are pretty much a definite bogey/lucky par due to their layout.

Also, cant you just have 2 pins for both options?

 

[biscoe]

425 foot par 3's typify some of the least interesting holes in disc golf imo. obviously this is without seeing the particular features of the hole.

 

[thirtydirtybirds]

Personally I'd prefer to play the par 4 and have a shot at birdie. Cater to the bulk of the players that will use the course. If you end up having a more high skill based tournament there, then look at alternate pin or tee options.

 

[1978]

Regardless of the changes the course is an intermediate level course and is likely to continue to host women and masters events. Not sure what the benefit would be of a hole that none of them would birdie. But then again the hole the hole before that is likely just a 3 for most players that play there so not much changes unless you do the par 4 version.

 

[Steve West]

With apologies to Robert Browning:

Ah, but a man's reach should exceed his grasp,
or what's a par 4?

 

[bhadella]

Winget has a 318', 374 and 380' length par four holes. Does a 425' open hole fit with the skill level and design style of the course?