If the overhang was sufficient enough you might have plenty of room. Might even be a cave of sorts. Even if it is one or a few inches, relief from the edge would be the safe stance rule.
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What's the ruling.....
- Thread starter XGumbyx
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If the overhang was sufficient enough you might have plenty of room. Might even be a cave of sorts. Even if it is one or a few inches, relief from the edge would be the safe stance rule.
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In this scenario there is a playing surface to lay the disc on in front of the disc. In the op the space the mini would be placed is air and as it drops the first playing surface it would hit is the lower one (or semantically the same playing surface lower down)
Could be up against the rock face under the overhang or scooted up under a small crevice.
Let's say a straight cliff and the disc wedges into a crack.
Cgkdisc
.:Hall of Fame Member:.
What about this disc position would allow you to move up to a playing surface? If you can mark your lie using either the disc or its front edge with a mini per the options available, i.e., playing surface below, then those are your options unless the course rules either allow you to move up or the TD has indicated you can do so.
So, if you can play from behind your disc and you can't mark below the front, you play from behind it. If you can't mark either lie as playable, typically because you can't even get to the disc, it might be a situation where you can move up to a playing surface per the disc below playing surface rule. Or, perhaps the TD has provided the option for players to move up or down such as landing on or under a footbridge. We have that default rule at The Valley DGC.
Your disc wedged in the cliff face example is simply like landing in a tree trunk. The disc is not on a playing surface. Mark with a mini below it (probably up against the cliff face which acts like a solid object) on the playing surface. If below the cliff face is not a playing surface, you may be able to move up under the disc below playing surface rule. Or in this case, the TD may have already marked the edge of the cliff as OB so marking this lie has been specified as the last point IB or a drop zone.
So the OP scenario with the disc slightly overhanging you can mark below on a playing surface.
What if the face of the cliff were at a slight angle and the mini can't be placed directly below?
(I probably answered my own question)
What if the face of the cliff were at a slight angle and the mini can't be placed directly below?
(I probably answered my own question)
There was an earlier quote of RC interpretations—particularly the one about disc in a crevice. Not the same scenario, but it does mention that if the marker would be in the air at the playing surface level, the marker should be placed in the playing surface along the LOP at the first available spot away from the basket.
General comment:
If I am the TD and had a real situation like this (and I've done this), places on the course where player may wish to say, "I'm still inbounds but can't play from there so I'm gonna do _____ in accordance with the rules," usually meaning he's moving up or down on a pyramid or a stacked surface or portion of a surface, this is how I handle it. I'm sure Chuck may tell me I'm wrong in doing this but so be it.
I will typically mark a penalty-free drop spot (free relief zone, I think it's called) for whenever the player thinks his lie cannot be played as it lies or cannot be marked. That is your option and your ONLY option other than play it where it lies. I have had penalty-free relief zones approved for potential "unplayable" (n the player's eyes lies) by Tour Manager. I then make that drop spot optional, so that if you find a way to play it as it lies you can, or you can go the drop spot -- either way there is no penalty. You'll be amazed how often the player chooses to play it as it lies.
OK,
Let me try explaining another way.
The part in red is taking my words out of context. I've never said anything (AT ALL) about a part of a disc here or a part of a disc there. Because I believe the rules address that. There's no "parts of a disc's location or position," ONLY one position. But if you'll tell me in the rules where it supports otherwise, I'll acquiesce. What I believe, by reading 805.01A, is that there's no such thing. It states "a thrown disc establishes a (singular, my emphasis) position when it first comes to rest." Therefore, at this juncture I think we must say either yes or no – I say that disc is ON the playing surface; it's position is ON the playing surface. It seems everyone discussing with me fails to answer that specific question, which I contend is the very first part of the discussion.. Is that disc ON? If you say yes then how is marking below allowed? (and biscoe I do not subscribe to the philosophy as you posited in an earlier post, "if it's not specifically prohibited by the rules then it's allowed. Not at all. It must be specifically allowed in order to do something out of the ordinary play it where it lies tenet of the rules.) If you say no (as I think one person did), THEN I can agree that you can mark below. If the disc were suspended a ½ meter above ground in a bush or whatever (assuming no 2m rule in play) then yes you could play below. But that wasn't the OP.
Definition. From Merriam Websters:
may, auxiliary verb
\ ˈmā \
past might \ mīt \; present singular and plural may
Definition 1a:
—used to indicate possibility or probability
as in, you may be right, or things you may need
—sometimes used interchangeably with can
as in, one of those slipups that may happen from time to time
—sometimes used where might would be expected
as in, you may think from a little distance that the country was solid woods
I think may means "might" in this context. "Might" is the actual past tense, so how does it not mean "might". It's a possibility not a guarantee or a right.
it's the word you guys keep ignoring. ON. 802.06A says "the position of a thrown disc on the in-bounds playing surface marks the lie."
If I am the TD and had a real situation like this (and I've done this), places on the course where player may wish to say, "I'm still inbounds but can't play from there so I'm gonna do _____ in accordance with the rules," usually meaning he's moving up or down on a pyramid or a stacked surface or portion of a surface, this is how I handle it. I'm sure Chuck may tell me I'm wrong in doing this but so be it.
I will typically mark a penalty-free drop spot (free relief zone, I think it's called) for whenever the player thinks his lie cannot be played as it lies or cannot be marked. That is your option and your ONLY option other than play it where it lies. I have had penalty-free relief zones approved for potential "unplayable" (n the player's eyes lies) by Tour Manager. I then make that drop spot optional, so that if you find a way to play it as it lies you can, or you can go the drop spot -- either way there is no penalty. You'll be amazed how often the player chooses to play it as it lies.
OK,
Let me try explaining another way.
The part in red is taking my words out of context. I've never said anything (AT ALL) about a part of a disc here or a part of a disc there. Because I believe the rules address that. There's no "parts of a disc's location or position," ONLY one position. But if you'll tell me in the rules where it supports otherwise, I'll acquiesce. What I believe, by reading 805.01A, is that there's no such thing. It states "a thrown disc establishes a (singular, my emphasis) position when it first comes to rest." Therefore, at this juncture I think we must say either yes or no – I say that disc is ON the playing surface; it's position is ON the playing surface. It seems everyone discussing with me fails to answer that specific question, which I contend is the very first part of the discussion.. Is that disc ON? If you say yes then how is marking below allowed? (and biscoe I do not subscribe to the philosophy as you posited in an earlier post, "if it's not specifically prohibited by the rules then it's allowed. Not at all. It must be specifically allowed in order to do something out of the ordinary play it where it lies tenet of the rules.) If you say no (as I think one person did), THEN I can agree that you can mark below. If the disc were suspended a ½ meter above ground in a bush or whatever (assuming no 2m rule in play) then yes you could play below. But that wasn't the OP.
Definition. From Merriam Websters:
may, auxiliary verb
\ ˈmā \
past might \ mīt \; present singular and plural may
Definition 1a:
—used to indicate possibility or probability
as in, you may be right, or things you may need
—sometimes used interchangeably with can
as in, one of those slipups that may happen from time to time
—sometimes used where might would be expected
as in, you may think from a little distance that the country was solid woods
I think may means "might" in this context. "Might" is the actual past tense, so how does it not mean "might". It's a possibility not a guarantee or a right.
it's the word you guys keep ignoring. ON. 802.06A says "the position of a thrown disc on the in-bounds playing surface marks the lie."
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Cgkdisc
.:Hall of Fame Member:.
What does it mean to be ON? Using our OP example, what if most of the disc was suspended horizontally by compressed grass an inch above the dirt playing surface and a few cm of the front edge projected out in space. No parts of the disc are actually ON the playing surface but above one. This is usually the case on most grassy landing spots and even uneven dirt landing spots where the disc does not have 100% surface contact.
Point being, discs landing in most positions are not 100% ON any playing surface. So technically, your lie is usually marked on the playing surface BELOW the back edge of the thrown disc or BELOW the front edge marked with a mini presuming either or both are available.
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No, "might" is NOT the "actual past tense" of "may"; "might" is a modal auxiliary verb expressing ideas such as possibility, necessity, and permission: it's only used to convey past tense in indirect speech, e.g., "She said that it might not be true," for "She said, 'That may not be true'," or with a perfect tense infinitive [/i]e.g.[/i], "You might have made a fool of yourself."
Where does 802..06 foreclose a player's right to exercise that possibility?
And here's the part YOU are ignoring:
Again, where does 806.2 foreclose to a player the possibility of exercising that option?
Here's Hole 7 at my church's course.
Hole Description: 210'. Tees 120' into the woods down a tight tunnel to basket set in a dry pond. There's a 20' high berm bisecting the fairway about 50' short of the basket. The berm is bisected by a stormwater runoff culvert exiting through a 12' high, 6" wide concrete retaining wall. The basket is ~10' lower than the top of the berm.
The ground (playing surface) on the basket side of the retaining wall is 10-14" below the top of the retaining wall, and the ground (playing surfac) on the tee side of the retaining wall is approx. 12' below the top of the wall. Water discharged through the culvert, when present, is casual.
The top surface of the retaining wall is a playing surface,* so if a thrown disc comes to rest spanning on top of the retaining wall, as in the photo (admittedly a very infrequent occurence, though it can and does happen), or establishes a position touching the basket side of the retaining wall—for example, a disc that fails to clear the berm and rolls back down, coming to rest touching the retaining wall: a not uncommon occurrence—the player has the option of marking the lie on the playing surface (ground) in front (on the basket side) of the wall and taking the stance on top of the retaining wall. In the former instance (disc comes to rest on top of the retaining wall), there is no legal way to both mark "on" and play from the top of the retaining wall: the playing surface that the disc is resting on. One's only options are to mark the lie on the playing surface below on the basket side of the disc or to relocate the lie to the playing surface at the base of the culvert; if one chooses to use the thrown disc to mark the lie, the resultant legal stance will be on the playing surface 12' below the playing surface defined by the top of the retaining wall.
*While one could argue that the top of the retaining wall should not be a playing surface, it meets the criteria of playing surface: "a surface, generally the ground, which is capable of supporting the player and from which a stance can reasonably be taken" set forth in 802.05.A, and has always been played as such since the course was laid out in 2009.
You're more than welcome to come to Durham and make a video of yourself taking a legal stance and throwing from the lie on the same playing surface as the thrown disc without marking the lie with a mini on the playing surface below the front of the thrown disc, in keeping with your argument that doing so is not permissible under the rules.
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krupicka
Double Eagle Member
As a TD I would choose to make it clear that is not a playing surface if I were running the event and probably have specific relief rules in place.
If I were ever to run a sanctioned event on the property, so would I; but the odds of that ever happening are somewhere between slim and none … and Slim done got hisself run out of town.
Thing is, retaining walls on drainage culverts on courses aren't uncommon in this area (the ones on Cedar Hills #7 and UNC old #3 long being notorious examples), and, historically, TDs have not designated them non-playing surfaces or specified relief rules for them, so when discs do land on them--which seems to happen at least once every tournament at Cedar Hills for the past 20-some years--they're treated as playing surfaces.
No, not semantically the same: pragmatically, yes, but not semantically.
So even Webster's dictionary will have to have a Q & A section?
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OK, so the position is a full circle on a playing surface? Where is the front of that circle and what playing surface is hosting the front of that position?
Isn't the position where the shadow of the disc would fall onto a playing surface if the sun were directly overhead?
Chains Bailey
Birdie Member
I would touch my mini marker to the front of my disc and then let go - it would fall directly onto the playing surface, and I would play from there. (My mini weighs 1000 pounds, so it would fall in an exactly straight line)
It could fall 0" / 1" / 3" / 3' / 20' - I have the option to mark the FRONT of my disc and play from that point, I would choose that option.
txmxer's illustration is spot on.
It could fall 0" / 1" / 3" / 3' / 20' - I have the option to mark the FRONT of my disc and play from that point, I would choose that option.
txmxer's illustration is spot on.
Guys:
I've said previously, that my contention in the OP is based upon the belief that the disc is ON the playing surface.
#1 – I've always maintained that you definitely have other options if it is NOT on the playing surface. I specifically mentioned suspended in a bush about a ½-meter above the ground as a common example. But, if you guys are now claiming that disc is NOT on the playing surface, then I can see your side. (See what I did there.)
#2 - I will add, however, that Chuck seems to imply here that a thrown disc is rarely ON the playing surface, and if that is true we need some re-writes because that definition is a basic tenet of the rules of our sport. Disc flies, it's inbounds on the ground (most often not close to any out-of-bounds or other boundary), the next throw is from there. Exceptions come when it's not. It would not make sense to have nearly every situation as an exception to the rule. Isn't the definition of rule to handle most cases, with an exception to address those few that aren't conforming to the norm of that rule?
#3 -- Steve, I guess I am saying that is why we do work and rule by the group as you stated in a previous post. In MY opinion (if I am on that card in that group), that disc is ON the playing surface. If I am not part of the majority of my card-mates, then so be it. The majority group decision has been made and I did not win that decision. Simple as that.
Your disagreement therein is with Merriam-Webster, not me. Reference
I don't subscribe to the theory that anything not specifically prohibited in the rules is allowed. It's the other way around, particularly for exceptions, or "alternates". I've been a part of rules-making in other settings and that IS NOT how they are done. If that is the RC's intent in our sport I'd like to hear that from them. Exceptions have to be specifically allowed in order to be legal with in the rules.
#1 – I agree wholeheartedly with Mike K. A good TD doesn't allow this to even be a discussion. I've already stated what I do – and incredibly, the players usually find a way to play it as it lies.If I were ever to run a sanctioned event on the property, so would I; but the odds of that ever happening are somewhere between slim and none … and Slim done got hisself run out of town.
Thing is, retaining walls on drainage culverts on courses aren't uncommon in this area (the ones on Cedar Hills #7 and UNC old #3 long being notorious examples), and, historically, TDs have not designated them non-playing surfaces or specified relief rules for them, so when discs do land on them--which seems to happen at least once every tournament at Cedar Hills for the past 20-some years--they're treated as playing surfaces.
#2 -- Coupe, Your picture example is one of those crazy outliers that is only created by bad TD-ing. You're telling me that in your pics in post #150 that the TD/course-designer has made the concrete ledge an inbounds playing surface AND the grass in front of it is an inbounds playing surface AND the concrete below (entrance) is an inbounds playing surface as well?? And it appears that if the disc lands inside the culvert hole it is inbounds as well? Well yes, that situation (created by that singular designer or TD) is one wherein you all do not leave me a choice but to say they can mark below on that grass. But that kind of rarest of rares that I mentioned previously, does not an overarching interpretation make, imho.
The difference is now you've found an outlier example but without the huge disparity in lies that the OP shows. If that were my course it would be simple. I'd have a penalty free drop-spot, just like Krupicka stated. Only to address the issue of that's not the intent of that rule.
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is the top of that wall really considered a playing surface; maybe it's my definition of a "reasonable stance". i think trying to maintain balance on top of an object (retaining wall) is not a reasonable stance (one could argue to just place a hand there & stand somewhere behind the lie, but that might not be possible). in the case of the disc coming to rest like the pic below, i think you could get solid obstacle relief, then get casual water relief.
No, it's not: it with your misuse of MW to support your position without understanding the conditions in which one of "might's" possible range meanings can connote the past tense of "may," and without bothering to check MW's commentary on usage of "may" and "might," which spells out those conditions in detail.
Hole 7 is far from a "crazy outlier." The fact that YOU do not commonly see this sort of condition on courses in your area doesn't mean that they're rare: it merely means they're rare in your experience. Those of us who DO encounter these sorts of conditions across multiple courses with some degree of regularity don't consider them rare or unusual, much less outliers.
As noted above, the drainage culvert and retaining wall in the southeast corner of the pond at Cedar Hills #7, though not as tall, presents the same condition, and over the past 20-some years of sanctioned and unsanctioned tournament play, the TDs have never designated the top of the retaining wall as a non-playing surface; likewise, TDs of the Tar Heel tournament from 2003 to the present have never designated a special condition for the culvert retaining wall on UNC old #3--or, for that matter, the raised 10" wide concrete slab topping the right side of the rock retaining wall that wraps around three sides of the basket on hole 18: likely because they have all seen the condition often enough that it doesn't register as unusual or needing TD intervention, because it's NOT rare and there is a consensus on how to play it should the need arise. I take it that you consider all those TDs to be "bad" TDs and the course designers to be "bad /designers"?
is the top of that wall really considered a playing surface; maybe it's my definition of a "reasonable stance". i think trying to maintain balance on top of an object (retaining wall) is not a reasonable stance (one could argue to just place a hand there & stand somewhere behind the lie, but that might not be possible). in the case of the disc coming to rest like the pic below, i think you could get solid obstacle relief, then get casual water relief.
If you're not comfortable playing from there, by all means, take optional relief and relocate the lie. :thmbup: (Just remember to add a penalty stroke to your score.
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