Withdrawing from tourney.

[foxdawg10]

What are options if a TD doesn't want to abide by rules for a sanctioned event?

There were people on wait list and I withdrew 3 days before event. TD was able to find someone to take my spot I feel I was fair.

He told me he would give me 50 percent of my entry. I told him my understanding was I get 100 percent if my spot was taken by someone on wait list. He got hostile, I stood my ground.

After more hostility from him I told him I would donate my funds, and post on our local community board to obtain clarification.

He saw my post and continued the hostility even though his tourney did not take a hit and I was willing to donate my money. I removed my post since I didnt want conflict. He made his own post to try and make me look bad but it backfired.

So out of no where he refunds my full amount and takes down his post. Or maybe the group admin did, who knows.

Either way it left a bad taste in my mouth. I felt I was fair to him and he seemed either incompetent or a jerk.

 

[BillFleming]

The rules that apply are in the Competition Manual 1/03 Withdrawals and Refunds. Para E applies:

Players who officially request to withdraw from an event within 14 days of the start of the event and prior to the event's published closure of registration and waitlist replacements (within one week is recommended) will receive a 100% cash refund minus up to a $10 handling fee ONLY if their spot in the tournament is filled through either the waitlist or a walk-up entry (if offered). If the player's spot is NOT filled, the TD has the choice to provide EITHER a 25% cash refund OR just the player's pack they would have received if they had attended (minus the cost of shipping). In the case of a player in a Pro division for an event without a Pro player pack worth at least 25% of the Entry Fee, the TD will provide the 25% cash refund.

The 'sticker' there is that it includes the statement "...prior to the event's published closure of registration." Three days before a tournament is usually after the registration has been closed. I don't see anything about if you withdraw AFTER registration is closed. Also - you say there were three people on the waitlist, that doesn't mean that they were able to fill your spot. The TD may have reached out to the three and they were unable to play at such short notice (3 days).

And one other thing....how did you withdraw? A TD could be extremely picky on the rules and an official withdrawal is:

A. Players MUST email or phone their withdrawals to the Tournament Director only at the contact information posted for the tournament. Discussions with persons other than the Tournament Director, including other tournament staff, shall not be considered official.

Normally, withdrawing from the event via Discgolfscene should be official, but that isn't part of the Competition Manual.

TLR: the rules don't have any compensation/refund for withdrawing AFTER the close of registration even if the spot is filled.

 

[biscoe]

sounds like a question for Big Dog to me...

 

[foxdawg10]

The rules that apply are in the Competition Manual 1/03 Withdrawals and Refunds. Para E applies:



The 'sticker' there is that it includes the statement "...prior to the event's published closure of registration." Three days before a tournament is usually after the registration has been closed. I don't see anything about if you withdraw AFTER registration is closed. Also - you say there were three people on the waitlist, that doesn't mean that they were able to fill your spot. The TD may have reached out to the three and they were unable to play at such short notice (3 days).

And one other thing....how did you withdraw? A TD could be extremely picky on the rules and an official withdrawal is:



Normally, withdrawing from the event via Discgolfscene should be official, but that isn't part of the Competition Manual.

TLR: the rules don't have any compensation/refund for withdrawing AFTER the close of registration even if the spot is filled.

Hi Bill, thank you for your response and request for more info. The advertised close of registration was tonight at 9:00 pm, so even thought it was short notice, which was unfortunate, it was before the close of registration and gave him time to make any adjustments to the pay outs.

 

[foxdawg10]

The rules that apply are in the Competition Manual 1/03 Withdrawals and Refunds. Para E applies:



The 'sticker' there is that it includes the statement "...prior to the event's published closure of registration." Three days before a tournament is usually after the registration has been closed. I don't see anything about if you withdraw AFTER registration is closed. Also - you say there were three people on the waitlist, that doesn't mean that they were able to fill your spot. The TD may have reached out to the three and they were unable to play at such short notice (3 days).

And one other thing....how did you withdraw? A TD could be extremely picky on the rules and an official withdrawal is:



Normally, withdrawing from the event via Discgolfscene should be official, but that isn't part of the Competition Manual.

TLR: the rules don't have any compensation/refund for withdrawing AFTER the close of registration even if the spot is filled.

The request was by messenger and also on the comments section of the Disc Golf Scene registration page. He responded to both.

I definitely wanted to be fair to him. He was able to fill my spot within minutes, I saw the posts on our local facebook page.

I definitely didn't want to screw anyone or make things difficult in any way. We have a small community and every TD I have dealt with has been more than willing to work with us if there are withdrawal issues. And as players we understand things happen, this isn't our jobs, it is a game we play for fun and recreation.

Ultimately he gave 100% refund, even thought I told him to keep the money since it isn't worth the controversy to me, but kept on bothering me throughout the day. I had to turn off my phone since I was at work.

 

[foxdawg10]

sounds like a question for Big Dog to me...

Yah I sent a question to the PDGA and they are very good at responding. I re-read the rules, 1.03 E, and it looks like meet all the criteria for a full refund:

"Players who officially request to withdraw from an event within 14 days of the start of the event and prior to the event's published closure of registration and waitlist replacements (within one week is recommended) will receive a 100% cash refund minus up to a $10 handling fee ONLY if their spot in the tournament is filled through either the waitlist or a walk-up entry (if offered). "

- I requested to withdraw and he responded
- within 14 days and prior to published closure registration and waitlist replacements
- my spot was immediately filled.

Yet he came back and told me the PDGA told him I was only eligible for 25%, so either he lied about the facts, or he BS'd me.

 

[jenb]

I'm curious if it matters if your spot was filled by someone in the same division. Like if you registered for a pro division and the person from the waitlist played am, or vice versa. I think if you were registered am and he ordered a player's pack for you, and you withdrew and your spot was filled by a pro, he would be stuck with a players pack he paid for. I could see a TD being salty about that.

 

[davetherocketguy]

I'm curious if it matters if your spot was filled by someone in the same division. Like if you registered for a pro division and the person from the waitlist played am, or vice versa. I think if you were registered am and he ordered a player's pack for you, and you withdrew and your spot was filled by a pro, he would be stuck with a players pack he paid for. I could see a TD being salty about that.

That's a great point. However, unless I am missing something the comp manual does not specify the spot being filled from where. Maybe some clarification is needed.

This is an interesting issue...

 

[foxdawg10]

I'm curious if it matters if your spot was filled by someone in the same division. Like if you registered for a pro division and the person from the waitlist played am, or vice versa. I think if you were registered am and he ordered a player's pack for you, and you withdrew and your spot was filled by a pro, he would be stuck with a players pack he paid for. I could see a TD being salty about that.

Per Mike Krupika at PDGA:


"If the waitlists are per division for that event and there was no one on the waitlist at the time for the division you were withdrawing from, then the 25% would be what you would be entitled. If though, there was someone on the waitlist for that division or the waitlist was for any division, then you would be entitled to 100% refund minus up to a $10 handling fee.

Mike Krupicka
PDGA #28238"

It is division specific. Since my spot was filled with another MPO player, this isn't relevant.

 

[foxdawg10]

sounds like a question for Big Dog to me...

Just an fyi, just off the phone with Mike Sullivan at PDGA. Great guy.

He said my interpretation is correct and I was entitled to 100 percent refund as Rich Longer opened the spot up to walk ups and the spot was immediately filled. The are also going to rewrite the rule to clarify in next year's rules.

 

[biscoe]

Just an fyi, just off the phone with Mike Sullivan at PDGA. Great guy.

He said my interpretation is correct and I was entitled to 100 percent refund as Rich Longer opened the spot up to walk ups and the spot was immediately filled. The are also going to rewrite the rule to clarify in next year's rules.

Mike is pretty local to me, I am in contact with him multiple times a week. He is the right man for that job for sure.

 

[foxdawg10]

Mike is pretty local to me, I am in contact with him multiple times a week. He is the right man for that job for sure.

The PDGA dropped the ball on this issue.

Mike Sullivan told me my interpretation of the rule is correct and I was entitled to 100% of my refund. Andrew Sweeton told the TD that I was only entitled to 25%, which is simply a wrong interpretation and application of a wrong rule.

So the PDGA themselves don't even have their understanding of the rules straight, and this has led to some conflict between me and the TD. Not acceptable for a "Professional" organization.

Mike told me that they intend to rewrite the rules to avoid this type of understanding.

 

[biscoe]

The PDGA dropped the ball on this issue.

Mike Sullivan told me my interpretation of the rule is correct and I was entitled to 100% of my refund. Andrew Sweeton told the TD that I was only entitled to 25%, which is simply a wrong interpretation and application of a wrong rule.

So the PDGA themselves don't even have their understanding of the rules straight, and this has led to some conflict between me and the TD. Not acceptable for a "Professional" organization.

Mike told me that they intend to rewrite the rules to avoid this type of understanding.

I thought the reason they created the Event Support team was at least partially to take things like this off of Sweeton's plate. Frankly I have never been a fan- he has been wrong as often as right in most of my interactions with him over rules and regs.

 

[jupiterboy]

Tangential question: Do you lose your fee if you are on a waiting list and don't get a spot?

 

[txmxer]

Tangential question: Do you lose your fee if you are on a waiting list and don't get a spot?

Pretty certain the answer is no.

 

[Future_Primitive]

Pretty certain the answer is no.

If we are talking the wait list fee then the answer appears to be yes.

Players who have paid MORE than a nominal waitlist fee of $10 to be on an event's waitlist who do not get into the event, or who officially request to withdraw from the waitlist prior to the event's published closure of registration and waitlist replacements (within one week is recommended), will receive a 100% cash refund minus the $10 waitlist fee. Waitlist players who ONLY paid a nominal non-refundable waitlist fee of $10 will not receive a refund.

 

[biscoe]

Tangential question: Do you lose your fee if you are on a waiting list and don't get a spot?

Only up to $10 at the discretion of the TD. I sometimes charge a waitlist fee of $5 which is advertised as non-refundable. If you get in it is applied to your entry. It helps to charge something to avoid having a waitlist full of players who never had the intention of playing to begin with which in turn generates a bunch of extra work for organizers.

 

[txmxer]

If we are talking the wait list fee then the answer appears to be yes.

Players who have paid MORE than a nominal waitlist fee of $10 to be on an event's waitlist who do not get into the event, or who officially request to withdraw from the waitlist prior to the event's published closure of registration and waitlist replacements (within one week is recommended), will receive a 100% cash refund minus the $10 waitlist fee. Waitlist players who ONLY paid a nominal non-refundable waitlist fee of $10 will not receive a refund.

Thanks. That makes sense, along with what biscoe posted.

I've never signed up on a waitlist. Can't see going to a course and hoping to get in to the event.

 

[biscoe]

Thanks. That makes sense, along with what biscoe posted.

I've never signed up on a waitlist. Can't see going to a course and hoping to get in to the event.

Most people who get in off of waitlists do so well before the event itself.

Back when I started playing pretty much everyone went to events not knowing for sure they would get in. You stood in line with money in hand until the guy said "we're full". (or you dropped a check in the mail often not knowing if it had arrived or not)

 

[Muddyboots]

Most people who get in off of waitlists do so well before the event itself.

Back when I started playing pretty much everyone went to events not knowing for sure they would get in. You stood in line with money in hand until the guy said "we're full". (or you dropped a check in the mail often not knowing if it had arrived or not)

You're old, you know that? Hahaha. I remember many times getting a phone call on Friday evening asking if I wanted to drive 3 hours to NC or the like to play the next day and to my recollection, never being turned away.