"You Might Need New Discs"

[SaROCaM]

If the starter pack challenge doesn't prove anything to some, check these two out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLiOsUkU-Vs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bi82PJD9fzc

Some nice throws with the DX Stingray and Cobra. Parking a 336' island hole with discs that some say are too flippy.

Since I am new, I only have four discs in my bag:
> Innova DX Leopard [6|5|-2|1]
> Innova DX Cobra [4|5|-2|2]
> Innova DX Shark [4|4|0|2]
> Innova DX Aviar [3|2|0|1]

AlphaFoxFL, check out those videos above. You have a DX Cobra; here is the potential of that disc.

Here is an in the bag a non-300ft SD86 type thrower
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iwxr2iqKQpU
Don't be that guy; unless you just want to buy lots of plastic

Never saw that before. An example of poor form and a bag full of discs with too many molds that don't do anything different. A lot of those disc descriptions sounded like they were taken from other in the bag videos, but they didn't match up with the throws at all. I'll second what Keller said. Don't go down this road.

 

[Rastnav]

In another thread I mentioned the SD86 philosophy of disc golf; that is, don't improve, argue with known paths to success and justify buying new discs in the search for distance instead of taking a step back and re-learning and fixing flaws.

That was not what I argued, thank you very much. You just wanted to make what I said into that argument.

I'll agree that RoDeO seems to be arguing some form of that, but that wasn't my argument. I just said people have different preferences in disc for the same slot. Gold Compass vs. DX Roc is not a search for a magic disc.

 

[Keller]

That was not what I argued, thank you very much. You just wanted to make what I said into that argument.

I'll agree that RoDeO seems to be arguing some form of that, but that wasn't my argument. I just said people have different preferences in disc for the same slot. Gold Compass vs. DX Roc is not a search for a magic disc.

And just to be clear; I wasn't speaking about you. I was just making a general comment.

There is nothing wrong with testing discs, some will feel better, some have better grip, it's all part of the game. But from what I have seen, most don't stick with a disc long enough to truly know the differences. I prefer the Roc to the Shark, but in a pinch, I can make a Shark work just fine.

As an example; Some prefer Leopards, some prefer Cheetahs. I threw Leopards for years, it took me a while to realize that the wing and the shallow depth was causing me release issues if the weather wasn't just right, but, I had a good understanding of the Leopards flight in the end.

If you don't have a baseline, what is one to measure against? Then it becomes just dumb luck.

Again, I wasn't critisizing or pointing at you

 

[AlphaFoxFL]

Thank you guys for all your input. As you may know, I'm trying to get up to at least 150ft with my Aviar putter and anything beyond 200ft with my mids.

I'm definitely getting somewhere. After a change to my grip, I can actually throw the discs the way they were meant to be thrown, following their flight paths the way that they are portrayed. This has given me a lot of confidence.

My putter is still around the 125ft area, and my mids are still in the 160+ft area, but I am making ground, with every few tens of throws being noticeably better than the next. I'm not worried about my fairway driver just yet, but I did get a few 190+ throws with it today on a course.

My paths are not spewing anymore, and my accuracy is lightyears better than what it was. I had three tap-in puts in 9-holes; that's impressive for me.

Now that I'm getting my shots in a tighter grouping, with better control, loft, and ease... What do I have to do to keep this kind of grouping while getting more distance...? Obviously, the further out you are, the more spread your grouping is going to be just by the nature of it, but the question still stands: How do I start gaining distance while keeping my shots accurate?

Thank you again for all your input, it has carried me a long way in this past week or so.

 

[RoDeO]

Missing the point.

The point is that they are not as unthrowable as you make them out to be, especially for people throwing them similar distances to you and OP. You can certainly get a lot more out of them than you currently are, even without hyzerflipping.

About those scores: as a group they averaged under +3. A +3 at Dela is 970+ rated. They all threw 950-1000 rated rounds. The point here is that again, those discs are not as unthrowable as you state.

This:



means you are still closer to this:



You and OP are having issues getting those basic discs past 200 feet. That is something that, assuming you want to improve, you should really figure out. Based on what you have described, it sounds like it is more than simply learning the hyzerflip.

Again, play your scoring rounds with whatever works best. But when it comes to learning and improving, for you, for OP, and anyone else in a similar situation, there are some fundamental issues that throwing those "starter" discs will help you figure out.

I disagree. I can throw my layup disc midrange Evidence (170g) out to 270 feet no problem. I can throw my putter out to 200 standing in place. My problem is, that since I started throwing left handed 5 weeks ago the spin or release I am putting on my light discs is causing them to flip too easy. My problem throwing putters far is I can't find a comfortable grip so I just use a fan grip.

Let's put this in perspective. 5 weeks ago I started learning to throw of which I had never done before with my off hand. I was throwing around 175 on average drives back then with my "starter" discs that first week. I threw lots of putter rounds and improved, then changed my grip for a better more comfortable feel. Now, this morning, I went and played and again increased my max drive on a hole throwing it 338 feet.

Now, I know I have things to clean up and get better at but Im thinking that for a 47 year old who just started 5 weeks ago to be already approaching 350 feet isn't too shabby.

So, do you think a 47 year old who just started playing 5 weeks ago who is approaching 350 on a good drive has fundamental flaws?

 

[Keller]

Post a video, otherwise it's just internet distance

 

[Putt for D'oh]

So, do you think a 47 year old who just started playing 5 weeks ago who is approaching 350 on a good drive has fundamental flaws?

So, if it is not fundamental flaws what is keeping you at 350'?

47? So? 350' is the max distance for a 47 year old?
Playing 5 weeks? So if you play more you will throw farther. Ok, but its not a form flaw in your mind?

 

[RoDeO]

So, if it is not fundamental flaws what is keeping you at 350'?

47? So? 350' is the max distance for a 47 year old?
Playing 5 weeks? So if you play more you will throw farther. Ok, but its not a form flaw in your mind?

I don't see it as a fundamental form flaw. Do you? I don't know what my max potential is a year from now or 5 years from now. I guess time will tell.
I just don't think it's a form flaw to not choose to throw light slow discs because they flip over too fast and right now, for a newbie, it's hard to get that hyzer angle at release just perfect so it flips up to level and flies straight.

 

[Putt for D'oh]

If its not a flaw in form then what is it?

I get not wanting to throw light flippy discs during a round but if it isn't a form issue in not being able to get a good flight out of it then what else could it be?

 

[SaROCaM]

I disagree. I can throw my layup disc midrange Evidence (170g) out to 270 feet no problem. I can throw my putter out to 200 standing in place. My problem is, that since I started throwing left handed 5 weeks ago the spin or release I am putting on my light discs is causing them to flip too easy. My problem throwing putters far is I can't find a comfortable grip so I just use a fan grip.

Let's put this in perspective. 5 weeks ago I started learning to throw of which I had never done before with my off hand. I was throwing around 175 on average drives back then with my "starter" discs that first week. I threw lots of putter rounds and improved, then changed my grip for a better more comfortable feel. Now, this morning, I went and played and again increased my max drive on a hole throwing it 338 feet.

Now, I know I have things to clean up and get better at but Im thinking that for a 47 year old who just started 5 weeks ago to be already approaching 350 feet isn't too shabby.

So, do you think a 47 year old who just started playing 5 weeks ago who is approaching 350 on a good drive has fundamental flaws?

Being unable to throw those light slow discs more than 200' is proof of a fundamental form flaw and/or understanding of how to throw a disc.

Throwing a disc 338' isn't proof of good form. That can be done by strongarming, throwing faster discs that compensate for flaws, etc.

Disagree all you want, but these have been demonstrated time and again. You're not the first new player stating you put so much snap or spin on those discs such that they behave the way you described. You're not the first new player (even at your age) chucking a disc over 300 feet and thinking it proves you know how to throw.

You're stunting your own development. You've also already injured yourself.

You have been playing 5 weeks. Those who are telling you that there are issues have been playing for years, if not decades.

This ain't our first rodeo.

 

[RoDeO]

If its not a flaw in form then what is it?

I get not wanting to throw light flippy discs during a round but if it isn't a form issue in not being able to get a good flight out of it then what else could it be?

If you mean the form part of putting the right hyzer angle on release then I agree. Even watching the pros throw the starter pack discs and Eagle had to start one of those flippy discs mostly pointed into the ground for his arm speed to get it so it didn't turn over on him. I'm not good enough yet to get that angle correctly. I'm barely just learning how to hyzer flip.

 

[RoDeO]

Being unable to throw those light slow discs more than 200' is proof of a fundamental form flaw and/or understanding of how to throw a disc.

Throwing a disc 338' isn't proof of good form. That can be done by strongarming, throwing faster discs that compensate for flaws, etc.

Disagree all you want, but these have been demonstrated time and again. You're not the first new player stating you put so much snap or spin on those discs such that they behave the way you described. You're not the first new player (even at your age) chucking a disc over 300 feet and thinking it proves you know how to throw.

You're stunting your own development. You've also already injured yourself.

You have been playing 5 weeks. Those who are telling you that there are issues have been playing for years, if not decades.

This ain't our first rodeo.

Just so you know, the other day, trying to hyzer flip my light discs I finally got one nice hyzer flip out of one of my light low speed discs and it flipped up to flat and actually went 290 feet. The problem is that I struggle doing the hyzer flips on those light discs. It's much easier to just get a higher speed disc and throw it level and have it go far and straight.
And, I know that the discs are spinning faster around than when I first started after my grip change. I went from a four finger to a two finger and when I did the discs started behaving differently instantly. My discs that were more stable started acting more understable. My Escape, which I couldn't really throw before the grip change is now one of my straighter flying discs. Most of my drives generally only get about 4-8 feet off the ground at their apex height. I think being able to throw a disc over 300 feet only getting that high is pretty decent for a beginner. Everyone keeps saying "keep it low" and so I have practiced many long hours of field work keeping my throws as low as I can.

Most of my discs are pretty light because that's what everyone was saying for newbies. And, for the first few weeks they were great. Now, they aren't so great. Discs that were too fast for my arm in the beginning I now can throw.

That's not stunting my development, that's called progress. There's no doubt that when I learn how to hyzer flip I will be able to throw them flippy discs pretty far.

 

[RoDeO]

Post a video, otherwise it's just internet distance

If only I knew how I probably could.

 

[SaROCaM]

If you mean the form part of putting the right hyzer angle on release then I agree. Even watching the pros throw the starter pack discs and Eagle had to start one of those flippy discs mostly pointed into the ground for his arm speed to get it so it didn't turn over on him. I'm not good enough yet to get that angle correctly. I'm barely just learning how to hyzer flip.

Again, it isn't just the hyzer flip.

Why can Eagle throw a 145g putter 400' on an anhyzer? No hyzer at all, just a pure anhyzer.

Why can McBeth and Sawtelle throw an understable DX midrange and park a 336' hole? Again, no severe hyzer at all, just a smooth, efficient, controlled throw.

Why can average intermediate players throw a 150g DX Leopard 250-300 feet?

Why are all those things possible, again, without the kind of hyzer flip that you describe, and here you are having trouble throwing those discs even 200 feet, let alone 250, or 300+ that is demonstrably possible?

Why are you comparing Eagle's arm speed to yours when talking about needing to throw with severe hyzer? When you are putting that much power on a disc, then you can worry about severe hyzer angles. For now, you should be worrying about why you can't throw those discs 200 feet. Are you wrist rolling? Are your planes consistent? Are you throwing with the right/wrong combination of velocity and spin? Does your form, from footwork to grip, impart the right spin within the right plane/axis?

You can throw 338' max, so you clearly have ability to throw. But you can't throw basic discs 200' which means you have fundamental form flaws. If you cleaned up your form to where you can throw those basic discs 200-250' then you would probably be able to throw your Mamba for more distance than you are now. It sounds like what you are doing is going and throwing as hard as you can. Maybe you'll get to 350', or maybe you'll injure your left arm the way you did your right arm. But seriously, if you figure out how to throw those other discs past 200' it will help you get more distance with less strain. You have a lot to gain by figuring it out. By not figuring it out, you will be losing out on distance and potentially injuring yourself trying to strongarm throws.

 

[SaROCaM]

Just so you know, the other day, trying to hyzer flip my light discs I finally got one nice hyzer flip out of one of my light low speed discs and it flipped up to flat and actually went 290 feet.

Progress. Part of the problem here is you went on for so long saying that they would turn and burn before 200 feet, which if that is the case is absolutely a form issue that isn't just learning to hyzerflip.

Congrats on getting that milestone.

Now as for throwing that Mamba for 300' tunnel shots: if you are progressing the way it sounds like you might be, then that likely won't be the case soon enough.

 

[Putt for D'oh]

An increase in spin will make the disc fly more stable, and turn less. A good chance that a 2 finger grip may be adding some angle release issues and wobble. The wobble will get the discs flying less stable. Hard to say without seeing a video of the throw though.

There are stickies at the top of the form analysis and critique forum that detail some good pointers on filming throws.

Part of your story is pretty inspiring. I would like to learn to throw with my off hand. I've started a few times and didn't continue but your progress sounds pretty amazing. Shoulder issues keep me from being able to throw FH more than about 60'.

On the other hand you come in as a newbie and without knowing background of who you are talking two start dismissing a whole lot of good advice developed over a long time. A lot of your posts have started with "I disagree" or just simply being dismissive in the first line or two of your response. I suggest take some time and try and see what it would take to agree with many of the posters here than believe you have it all figured out already.

 

[RoDeO]

Again, it isn't just the hyzer flip.

Why can Eagle throw a 145g putter 400' on an anhyzer? No hyzer at all, just a pure anhyzer.

Why can McBeth and Sawtelle throw an understable DX midrange and park a 336' hole? Again, no severe hyzer at all, just a smooth, efficient, controlled throw.

Why can average intermediate players throw a 150g DX Leopard 250-300 feet?

Why are all those things possible, again, without the kind of hyzer flip that you describe, and here you are having trouble throwing those discs even 200 feet, let alone 250, or 300+ that is demonstrably possible?

Why are you comparing Eagle's arm speed to yours when talking about needing to throw with severe hyzer? When you are putting that much power on a disc, then you can worry about severe hyzer angles. For now, you should be worrying about why you can't throw those discs 200 feet. Are you wrist rolling? Are your planes consistent? Are you throwing with the right/wrong combination of velocity and spin? Does your form, from footwork to grip, impart the right spin within the right plane/axis?

You can throw 338' max, so you clearly have ability to throw. But you can't throw basic discs 200' which means you have fundamental form flaws. If you cleaned up your form to where you can throw those basic discs 200-250' then you would probably be able to throw your Mamba for more distance than you are now. It sounds like what you are doing is going and throwing as hard as you can. Maybe you'll get to 350', or maybe you'll injure your left arm the way you did your right arm. But seriously, if you figure out how to throw those other discs past 200' it will help you get more distance with less strain. You have a lot to gain by figuring it out. By not figuring it out, you will be losing out on distance and potentially injuring yourself trying to strongarm throws.

I think there's a general misunderstanding here back and forth. In the beginning my lighter discs were great. I was getting decent distance with them in the 250 feet range. Then as I both changed my grip and improved my arm speed those same discs, on the same release I was putting on them before started flipping over. At the same time, discs in the 9 speed range that I had a hard time throwing far in the beginning now became throwable.

It's not that I can't throw flippy discs 200 feet. I certainly can with relative ease. One of my warm up routines for my aging body is to throw my light flippy disc very easy and gently and run and chase it down and do it again and again until my hearts pumping. Those gentle little throws are easily going 200+ feet. It's that when I try to throw them really hard I can't very often because I haven't mastered the hyzer angle required yet.

I wasn't comparing Eagles arm speed to mine. I will never even begin to approach his arm speed because of my age. I will be happy to get up around 400 feet eventually. I was stating that in order for him to throw that light Leopard for distance he has to put an extreme hyzer angle on it. Go watch the video. Why doesn't he throw that disc regualarly in competition? In fact, I don't know ant pro throwing a light Leopard DX as a fairway driver when they want distance. Why is that?

 

[SaROCaM]

Just so you know, the other day, trying to hyzer flip my light discs I finally got one nice hyzer flip out of one of my light low speed discs and it flipped up to flat and actually went 290 feet.

Now that you have hyzerflipped it, see if you can get it over 200 feet without hyzerflipping. That would be even more progress and an even cleaner throw. When you can control angles, work on rollers and getting them down on the right angle. So much progress yet to come; those flippy discs still have a lot to teach you.

On the other hand you come in as a newbie and without knowing background of who you are talking two start dismissing a whole lot of good advice developed over a long time. A lot of your posts have started with "I disagree" or just simply being dismissive in the first line or two of your response. I suggest take some time and try and see what it would take to agree with many of the posters here than believe you have it all figured out already.

This was definitely an issue. Another example is arguing with SW22 over what constitutes rounding.

 

[RoDeO]

An increase in spin will make the disc fly more stable, and turn less. A good chance that a 2 finger grip may be adding some angle release issues and wobble. The wobble will get the discs flying less stable. Hard to say without seeing a video of the throw though.

There are stickies at the top of the form analysis and critique forum that detail some good pointers on filming throws.

Part of your story is pretty inspiring. I would like to learn to throw with my off hand. I've started a few times and didn't continue but your progress sounds pretty amazing. Shoulder issues keep me from being able to throw FH more than about 60'.

On the other hand you come in as a newbie and without knowing background of who you are talking two start dismissing a whole lot of good advice developed over a long time. A lot of your posts have started with "I disagree" or just simply being dismissive in the first line or two of your response. I suggest take some time and try and see what it would take to agree with many of the posters here than believe you have it all figured out already.

I can certainly understand why it may sound the way it does. I was generally pretty happy throwing from my dominant right hand. As a blessing in disguise, my overuse injury actually led me to find that I was using more arm than I should as my left arm is quite a bit weaker than my right as I am a mechanic by trade and do literally everything right handed. Learning to throw left was completely an eye opening experience. For many years I was a baseball coach and swung a lot of bats doing fielding practice. Throwing lefty felt so much like swinging a bat which came so naturally that it was easy for me to adjust to the mentality of engaging the hip, back and shoulder muscles and letting the arm whip through.

My right arm is all healed up for the most part now and I just began retraining my right throw to feel like my left. My problem there is, with my right arm being so strong I keep wanting to strong arm it. It's a work in progress. I'm actually very satisfied with throwing lefty as it feels so good on my body and arm. My arm literally never gets sore at all whereas before from my right side my arm would fatigue.

I changed my grip to a two finger because my pinky finger was just getting in the way and causing off axis torque (wobble). I tried a three finger grip but it felt weird and so I watched a video about grips and found others throwing the two finger grip and so I tried it and instantly fell in love with it. I still get occasional wobble but generally it's pretty clean coming out. One of my neighbors who I play with was impressed with how smooth the disc looked coming out.

I honestly think now that a right handed person should learn lefty as I believe it can improve their driving game, especially if they have a baseball or golfing background.

 

[SaROCaM]

I think there's a general misunderstanding here back and forth. In the beginning my lighter discs were great. I was getting decent distance with them in the 250 feet range. Then as I both changed my grip and improved my arm speed those same discs, on the same release I was putting on them before started flipping over. At the same time, discs in the 9 speed range that I had a hard time throwing far in the beginning now became throwable.

It's not that I can't throw flippy discs 200 feet. I certainly can with relative ease. One of my warm up routines for my aging body is to throw my light flippy disc very easy and gently and run and chase it down and do it again and again until my hearts pumping. Those gentle little throws are easily going 200+ feet. It's that when I try to throw them really hard I can't very often because I haven't mastered the hyzer angle required yet.

I wasn't comparing Eagles arm speed to mine. I will never even begin to approach his arm speed because of my age. I will be happy to get up around 400 feet eventually. I was stating that in order for him to throw that light Leopard for distance he has to put an extreme hyzer angle on it. Go watch the video. Why doesn't he throw that disc regualarly in competition? In fact, I don't know ant pro throwing a light Leopard DX as a fairway driver when they want distance. Why is that?

There was a general misunderstanding. Until now you gave the impression that you were unable to throw those discs 200 feet without them flipping over, and you kept stating that hyzerflipping was the answer.

Hyzerflipping is one thing, but you can certainly throw those discs without hyzerflipping.

As for Eagle, by pointing out the hyzer angle in combination with your repeated statements on hyzerflipping, you are comparing (not equating 1:1, but speaking comparably like your situation is somewhat similar) your arm speeds. Otherwise why point out the need for hyzer?

He doesn't throw that disc regularly in competition for any number of reasons. Speculate it is because it 1) isn't durable enough 2) already has bagged a D-Line FD, which is comparable 3) his power and the shots he needs to execute in competition require different discs.

But again, that is missing the point. No one is saying you need to throw a DX Leopard for a max distance driver. Everyone is saying that you should be able to get more out of your starter pack type discs than you are getting (especially when all the info available was that you couldn't throw them 200 feet.) Even throwing them past that distance, they aren't just limited to hyzerflips. Can you throw a putter on anhyzer for any appreciable distance? What can you do with those discs at different heights, different lines/trajectories, etc.? All you are doing is throwing hyzerflips and low shots. Which is fine, you gotta focus on one thing at a time. But to dismiss or ignore the possibility of a putter anhyzer shot by pointing out the hyzer needed on a Leopard is leaving a lot on the table. You are still stuck on saying your issue is that you haven't mastered the required hyzer angle. But there are other ways to manipulate the flight of a disc, such as height. Try things other than hyzerflipping. Consider the other shots in the videos referenced earlier, not just the Leopard drives that flipped over. What about the 400' anhyzer putter shot? What can you learn from that? What about the 330' midrange shots? What can you learn from that? Those are all as far or further than your max driver distance. Why is that? It isn't just hyzerflipping. Note that they are higher shots than your "no more than 8 feet" ceiling. Explore that.

In short, there are so many more aspects to throwing (even for distance) than low hyzerflips. Spending some time figuring them out will only help.