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- Aug 14, 2011
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Should have started that career earlier this year.
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Surrounded by water
- Thread starter txmxer
- Start date
Should have started that career earlier this year.
It's a small creek that is typically dry as it only catches rain water. There was only a single place where there was water on one hole and that was basically a small pond. There are a few holes that cross the creek bed and several that run parallel to the creek bed. They painted a line on only one side of the creek.
This particular even did not have the "island" that I was asking about. This creek is only about 4 wide in most places and less than a foot deep.
OTOH, the creek at Bicentennial can be 50 feet wide and several feet deep. When the water level is down, there are places where islands form. Same thing happens at Saddle Hill. The particular locations I'm thinking about are perpendicular crossings. Depending on the event the water is sometimes called casual and sometimes OB for these crossings. I recall seeing this occur the last time I played a tournament at Saddle Hills. Disc was dry so no OB even though it was on a small island. And as mentioned above, it happened to me at Bicentennial.
That's what we did on our course. Makes for a simple rule sheet.
- Joined
- Sep 3, 2012
- Messages
- 6,299
Don't you guys have a vague, hard to interpret rulebook that answers this?
Didn't mean to ruffle any feathers. My comment was casual so I'm just going to play it where it lies. Unsure where to to spot it so I'll word this one as a provisional.
What you encounter on these forums discussing tournament play and rules is nothing like what you'll encounter in a tournament. Honestly most groups with indecision over a rule will just move forward without rocking the boat, making the most common sense decision in the moment to go forward without advantaging or disadvantaging anyone. Using the rules discussion in the Des Moines thread as an example: maybe a provisional will be called here or there where it shouldn't have been, but unless its on coverage like Gannon's situation the odds are that literally no one will ever dissect that decision or even come to realize that something was played wrong or that they even had to worry about playing it wrong.
You'll encounter some rounds here and there with someone that is absolutely nose-in-the-rulebook trying to find an edge, looking for something to call on someone (rightfully or not). But they're just so rare that its not worth stressing over.
I definitely feel like this thread's topic could come up in any given league or tournament I play where there's a creek in my area, 3 separate courses. But in 18 years I've never encountered an actual dispute over this particular thing, including many years where I played probably over 200 league+tournament rounds locally.
The rule I've always encouraged at our local leagues, where we tend to make the call day-of, is to check if the water is running. If the creek in the water is running, we play it out of bounds. If its not, we play it casual.
Though I do like to take advantage any time there's residual paint from a recent tournament.
I encourage everyone who wants to improve their local course to use the example of Idlewild when considering the expense of permanent boundaries. I believe Idlewild got cores from a local concrete company that were essentially waste, cores from testing concrete composition, maybe? Most areas with a lot of manufacturing can probably find someone to donate something, some kind of non-toxic waste product, similar that could be used as permanent installations that aren't an eyesore.
One of these days I'll take my own advice and do it locally, we've got a few holes that are way better with the OB provided by temporary water hazards.
You are correct IMO that most people don't want to create an issue or scene. However, since the rules are vague (as you have argued), I thought I might ask for clarity of people's opinion or interpretation since that is how the rules are commonly followed.
I posted this because I have encountered specific interpretations that (once again IMO) don't match the statement "surrounded by water". I thought--hey, a place where people talk about rules and interpretations in a benign manner would be ideal for me to address my conflict between experience and written word.
But, that seems to extend beyond some people. For some, their ego exceeds dispassionate debate. That's okay. I can see that for what it is worth. It's personal for some. I can get caught up in the personal aspects as well. Regardless, I try really hard not to carry my personal issues from one thread to another.
Circumstances vary wildly. We have a private course with about a half-mile of creek shore (and as many holes that bring the creek into play as we could muster), and another quarter-mile of gravel road (the border of which is, if anything, even vaguer than water's edge).
We don't want the unsightliness of permanent OB markers, nor is it feasible to mark all of that for C-tier tournaments. As a compromise, a few particularly troublesome spots are marked; for tournaments we mark a few more (including the gravel road), and leave the rest to good will.
The standards would be different for top-tier courses and events.
In the meantime, we try to be as specific as possible in the wording of our ground rules, so people can quickly make a ruling and get on with playing.
We don't want the unsightliness of permanent OB markers, nor is it feasible to mark all of that for C-tier tournaments. As a compromise, a few particularly troublesome spots are marked; for tournaments we mark a few more (including the gravel road), and leave the rest to good will.
The standards would be different for top-tier courses and events.
In the meantime, we try to be as specific as possible in the wording of our ground rules, so people can quickly make a ruling and get on with playing.
thanks David. I like to think along the lines of "fair play" and sportsmanship as suggested in the earliest versions of the rules and exist today.
But, there are aspects that are arbitrary and require a choice. Like the 2 meter rule. Why is a disc at 1.9 m IB and disc at 2.1 m OB? Because the rule is 2 m.
Yeah, I agree that it is a question worth asking. I didn't mean for the end of that post to come across as saying this isn't a discussion worth having. It absolutely is, and I enjoyed reading it. I was more intending to just note for this person that debates over this stuff just aren't regular on the course in competition settings.
Generally these conversations are a lot of fun to me to participate in or read. I think they're all worth it. I literally do this as a component of my job (writing research protocols and consent forms for institutional internal review boards and DoD human research protection offices takes a team effort to get every word right and pass muster first submission), and it is just a lot of fun to get to have those discussions about a hobby I love instead of, for example, ensuring the rights of 7 year olds aren't infringed upon.
Most places, neither is OB. The 2-meter rule is fairly rarely used.
In fact, that arbitrariness was part of the argument for doing away with it (along with the arbitrariness of whether the disc stuck in the tree, or fell out, to begin with).
The background was a disc stuck at, say, 10 meters was unplayable...but a disc in a bush 3" above the ground was not. A line needed to be set somewhere in between; 2 meters was fairly easy to judge.
In any sport with boundaries, there are cases where an inch one way or the other, results in a different ruling.
I've always thought that using water lines to define OB is not the optimal option; however, I can acquiesce to certain places or situations where the practicality outweighs that philosophy.
However, I wish TD's would shorten it to "surrounded by water", and say, "where the water line meets the land in the creek/bed/pond/whatever defines the OB line."
However, I wish TD's would shorten it to "surrounded by water", and say, "where the water line meets the land in the creek/bed/pond/whatever defines the OB line."
FTFM
Maybe --- "surrounded by water in the creek" ???It may be hundreds, or even thousands of miles away, but...
Every continent is surrounded by water.
∴ Every lie is surrounded by water.
Feel free to discuss/debate.
