Springwood Players Course extinct!

[BraveThrower43]

Late spring/summer/fall the fields would be used a lot especially in the afternoon and weekends

Yea when I went there I'm not sure there was a field in the park that wasn't in use. That place was hella busy

 

[Stardoggy]

That's a whole lotta drama over a spot to throw frisbees. Dang.

 

[Halcón]

That's a whole lotta drama over a spot to throw frisbees. Dang.

This thread feels like we're intruding on a bunch of stuff that should not have been aired out.

And it is a lot of drama, but it sounds like there are very real safety concerns here. So the dispute is certainly justified.

 

[Stardoggy]

This thread feels like we're intruding on a bunch of stuff that should not have been aired out.

And it is a lot of drama, but it sounds like there are very real safety concerns here. So the dispute is certainly justified.

Agreed. It's a shame that people get tunnel vision and can't see outside their desires.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

...it sure looks like a 9-hole, kid-and-family-friendly course would have been a better fit, both for the available land, and tying in with the other kid-and-family-friendly park activities.

Furthermore, while I don't know the area around this course, I think there's is generally a need for more of these types of courses... at least there is in my neck of the woods.

Not every course should be "championship caliber." If you really want to grow the game, we need places that are inviting enough for families and kids to play, without much risk of disc loss, yet interesting and fun enough to encourage repeated rounds.

The additional benefit of such a course that it doesn't have to be as segregated from other park activities (as a higher caliber courses should be). Being out in the open showcases the sport to those unfamiliar with it. That's how people pick the game up. Granted, it doesn't showcase the sport at a high level, but it would promote it as a family friendly activity that's accessible to all. By providing more suitable places for less serious players, it could also reduce n00b traffic on "better" courses. If people want to go further with it, they will.

 

[sloppydisc]

I'm guessing Buzz did this out of melancholy.

Here's the story so far:

Buzz is an eccentric sort that has been playing DG since the seventies (according to him). In his mind, the chief test of a disc golfer is "how far and straight you can throw it" (paraphrase). A longtime Burlingtonite, he convinced Burlington P&R to let him install a course capable of holding World's caliber tourneys. Director Tony Laws, not knowing anything about disc golf and keen on tourism dollars, agreed. Buzz with the help of his longtime friend, Chuck Rhoades (another long in the tooth veteran of DG), designed Springwood Player's Course, complete with 1000' holes bordering ball fields and neighborhoods.

Alright, the rest of the story most of you know. The course got blasted in reviews (myself included); a redesign became inevitable to address safety issues. Buzz, being the crazy old coot that he is, does not take criticism very well. SPC was his baby, something he poured a lot of work into and one of the few things he had going for him during a dark period of his life. Nevertheless, Buzz surprisingly became open to some ideas on redesign and I helped him make some major changes (move 8's basket out of the brier filled ravine, new tees for #3 to prevent discs from flying into the softball field). Meanwhile, the group Buzz selected to handle tourneys at SPC, the Burlington Area Disc Golf Club, led by Jon Owens, Jayson Prutzman, and Mike Avillion had their own redesign ideas. *cue dramatic music*

The Owens group decided to redesign everything, sort of. A ton of tweaks (tees/baskets relocated) done primarily for par/distances, a new #3 that brings back the problematic tees near the softball field, #9 and #10 completely redone (two of the least problematic holes) for facilitate tournament play by creating front and back 9 loops, renumbering of every hole, and the combination of holes 11 and 12 into one 700'+ hole that plays continuously towards the soccer field. IMO, the Owens' proposal was a lot of work to create or not address much of the same proximity problems of the original course. BADG's ideas found traction though thanks to a considerable BADG and friends of BADG campaign, including lip service paid by David Wiggins, Jr., Ronnie Huffman, Jr., and DGCR's own favorite son, Robert Leonard aka MTL. Buzz is basically feeling like Caesar on the Ides of March at this point (Et tu, BADG-te?) and battle lines are being drawn.

Since the two sides can't come to agreement, Tony Laws (P&R director) calls a meeting to hammer out a redesign compromise. As a neutral attendee of this meeting, this is a fairly unbiased account: Buzz and Rhoades are slightly outnumbered thanks to Huffman's presence and their opinions and objections are repeatedly cut-off by Mike Avillion and Owens. Buzz, normally a cantankerous battleship of emotional outbursts, is eerily calm, like a man awaiting the gallows and resigned to his fate. Occasionally, Buzz randomly attacks BADG passive-aggressively as a last-ditch salvo of his pride. Rhoades is fairly active in disagreement and generally seems flustered. My critique of a couple of Owens' changes are not refuted but generally fall on deaf ears. Occasionally, Owens questions my credentials in a vague ad hominem. For the most part, I sat and enjoyed the fireworks that culminated with Avillion literally shouting at Buzz for suggesting that an honorary BADG membership (normal value: $15) should have been given to him as courtesy for being the course's designer. After this, much sniping and eye-rolling by all colors the conversation and after three hours of petty squabbling Laws and park manager Dean Sessoms look like they're ready to kill themselves. Buzz and Rhoades acquiesce to all but four major changes and the meeting ends gridlocked over this.

Laws basically said 'Screw it' and went half and half on the four points of disagreement to appease both sides. Now it appears that BADG are setting about enacting their changes, with or without Buzz's involvement. They've put a basket in on the softball hole to renew chuckers' chances of hitting a softball player again, moved 12's basket from around the corner and onto the eroded slope of the soccer field, and moved 18's basket towards the ditch.

Thus ends your drama update.

That is awesomeness. Public employees and disc golfers. What could possibly go wrong?

 

[sloppydisc]

Well, since I have been name dropped I feel the need to chime in. I don't have much of a presence on this site because I choose to disc golf more than write about it, plus with job and family there just isn't much extra time to armchair QB.

The process at Springwood has been long and tedious, it has been in talks for well over 6 months. I am not going to go into specifics or finger pointing, but I will say that the Burlington Area Disc Golf Club has been very active in planning, testing, and presenting improvements. We have held tournaments with alternate layouts and asked for feedback regarding changes. All changes that we proposed were tested, critiqued (by people that actually chose to play them), tested again and then settled. This process has kicked around 21 holes, has kicked around complete re-design, and has come up with solutions that the majority of folks involved feel are a value-add to the course and park.

I'd also like to say that the assessments from the top pros in the area probably carried a lot of weight. One pro said that he has driven by the course many times to go play others that were further from his home because it was a poor design.

As for the meeting that we had, it was quite constructive. We went hole by hole to discuss safety issues/proposed changes and went around the room for votes. And yes, I called Buzz out for his attempt at panhandling a club membership. In my defense, it was far short of the screaming tirade Dave describes but I did make sure my point was across.

We will never make everyone happy, but that's not the goal. The goal is a safer course that is fun to play, it will be both once changes are completed. Dave, I will let you know when we have some work days out there so you can pitch in, cool?

EJ, as always, thank you for being on top of things at the SPC. I will also let you know when we will be digging and moving pads if you'd like to pitch in. We will be re-starting the Glow League on January 2nd, we just got an order of club discs in (thanks to Ronnie Huffman), and we feel that we are headed in a direction that will lead to a larger organized presence in the Burlington area. 26 member and growing....

:clap:

Thanks for the calm and reasonable review. A breath of fresh air these days. Good luck with the course.

 

[sloppydisc]

So I got to play the course today. I was even the one that first alerted the local club that the course was marked as extinct.

The tee signs and many tee pads from the oregional layout is still there so while I played the new layout, I could see what the original holes were supposed to be.

I was pretty much bored with the course by the time I got to hole 8.

The original layout was very poorly designed. Out of the 75+ courses I have played in the 13-14 years I have been playing, I can honestly say there are only a few courses that had a poorer or more unsafe layout.

This park shouldn't have had a course installed IMO. It is a very boring gold level course and the shorter pads don't bring much more enjoyment. There is very little variety in the shots. I can only recall that I hole that isn't righty friendly or neutral.

My favorite hole was hole 2. Hole 2 and hole 15 are the only 2 wooded holes and 15 isn't that wooded.

Mike was talking about making it a 21 hole layout. I'm assuming you would be breaking up the longer holes into shorter ones. Unfortunately I don't think that will make the course any better as it will be holes with an average length of 350 ft.

At least I can mark this course off of the "need to play list."

I shot a 59 playing from the blue pads. Could have been a 54 but I missed the Mando on 3 and missed several 30 ft putts for a 2 or 3.

That mirrors my image of the course. I thought the space and land could best be utilized as a short beginner friendly course for the local kids, and families there for soccer and softball games.

 

[sloppydisc]

Mike, I'd love to know what beers you drink to have these opinions, they must be good. Yall had a good opportunity to make a reasonable first impression with me and yall came across as more petty than Buzz Sharpe which is saying something. Maybe that night was an aberration of character but for now I don't like any of you. Seriously, I'm generally well-regarded by virtually everyone I know (even Buzz and I get along okay and he thinks I'm a Bolshevik buffoon). To rub me the wrong way says a lot and maybe yall would be behooved by some introspection. :|

It isn't worth my time to drive up there much anymore since yall and Sharpe want to argue over how to rearrange deck chairs on the Titanic. Hopefully the course never has a softball or soccer player wrecked by a driver because of the redesign, to pretend that yall have addressed those concerns is asinine.

Hasta luego

Bortherdave, the easy going Bolshevik. Hahaha. I like it. Maybe I should go meet this Buzz dude. He sounds like my kind of people.

 

[BraveThrower43]

Bortherdave, the easy going Bolshevik. Hahaha. I like it. Maybe I should go meet this Buzz dude. He sounds like my kind of people.

True y'all both seem a tad off

 

[Plankeye]

That mirrors my image of the course. I thought the space and land could best be utilized as a short beginner friendly course for the local kids, and families there for soccer and softball games.

The only area that would be suitable for a short beginner friendly course is not close to the soccer fields or softball fields. The area I am talking about is the area where holes 6 - 11 currently are. Even part of that area isn't that great for beginners because you will have many discs that could fly into brier filled areas(8's fairway). If you tried to make this a 9 hole course in this area, you would have a very boring 9 hole course...even for a beginner. A course like this would have many of the same issues as the course in Stokesdale has.

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The newly made hole 3 reintroduces the possibility of a disc landing in the softball field. The mando on the light pole is still there and I can see many beginners either hitting the pole and kicking into the softball field, hitting the horizontal branch that you have to throw under and kicking into the softball field, or going around the mando correctly by fading out into the softball field closer to the basket. I threw two drives from that pad yesterday(the second due to the fact that I missed the mando). I threw a truth and claymore and they both landed where the softball field ends and the fairway begins with a 60 foot or less approach to the basket.

Hole 4(tee from the walking path) has a higher chance of people throwing into the softball field even if they make it around the mando. And God forbid if a righty grip locks and shanks it to the right....you will be throwing it down a park road.


Hole 5 still has a mando a person has to throw around to the right. Miss the mando to the left or hit the pole and it is possible for a disc to land in a softball field.(original hole 5 is no longer there)

 

[DSmith]

But Pros would never have shots go into the softball fields and the course is designed for them, not you noobs.

opcorn:

 

[BraveThrower43]

But Pros would never have shots go into the softball fields and the course is designed for them, not you noobs.

opcorn:

You sir know nothing

 

[Plankeye]

But Pros would never have shots go into the softball fields and the course is designed for them, not you noobs.

opcorn:

so let's talk about your redesign of barber park a few years ago during summer league...

the redesign was so well received that many people stopped playing your league and started a weekly event at another local course

opcorn:

 

[BraveThrower43]

Just for the record my post was a joke. Meant to add a

 

[Mocheez]

Disc golf has been growing at an amazing rate in North Carolina over the last several years. Based on this thread, I am wondering if it has reached a saturation point.

 

[keltik]

Saturation? Not even close. Go east of Raleigh and you hit a dg desert. There really aren't that many courses inthe triad. And they are building more in Charlotte. The city of Burlington might be at saturation. Eh what do I know?

 

[Plankeye]

Nope. It hasn't. There are a lot of good courses planned in areas that are not disc golf rich. As long as the designer puts a lot of thought into the course to make it enjoyable, challenging, and safe then there won't be complaints.

What has happened with some courses lately is you have Joe Schmoe that has no business designing a course going to P&R and pitching the idea of a course. P&R approves it and bam you get a bad course.

 

[BraveThrower43]

Nope. It hasn't. There are a lot of good courses planned in areas that are not disc golf rich. As long as the designer puts a lot of thought into the course to make it enjoyable, challenging, and safe then there won't be complaints.

What has happened with some courses lately is you have Joe Schmoe that has no business designing a course going to P&R and pitching the idea of a course. P&R approves it and bam you get a bad course.

This. Parks are seeing the positives about DG but don't have enough knowledge to know what's good and what's bad.

The Charlotte area is probably going to add several more in the next few years(I know of at least 5). The triangle is primed to boom more and there are courses going in towards the mountains and the coast. The only issue is whos designing them at this point

 

[Three Putt]

What it sounds like is that the parks dept got duped with the idea of tourism. They didn't know enough about disc golf to understand how dangerous the shots were and had the idea of holding big destination events dangled in front of them. In today's "were going to cut your budget again" world a lot of parks department try to justify their existence by showing they are part of the economic generator for the community by being a draw for people from out of town who are going to buy gas and food and whatever else when they come to town for parks department events. It is so far removed from the actual purpose of parks and recreation that it's absurd, but that is the crazy World we live in.

It was funny to me that I got a four-year degree in parks and recreation which dealt with quality of life issues and urban ecosystems and ended up spending a dozen years in city council meeting trying to prove that I was doing enough to hustle a buck. When your educational background is a lot of Gifford Pinchot, Aldo Leopold and Fredrick Law Olmsted, the idea that your primary goal is to hustle a buck rings very hollow. I wasn't very good at it because it wasn't what I ever saw as my primary reason for doing what I did.

There is a lot of responsibility to go around in these cases where disc golf courses go astray. The parks department should have done their homework. The disc golfers who designed it should have realized they were in over their heads. The companies selling baskets need to ask some questions about where these baskets are going; a quick check of that proposed course map should have throw up a red flag. None of these things happened.