Bradley Williams Suspended

[lyleoross]

you mean when he got mad because mcbathroom had to go pee?

That's McAntsypants to you!

 

[lyleoross]

For those who didn't go read the Cam Todd thread as the Disccussion site. This is an interesting response to those who said Cam got to much of a suspension just for talking harshly to the TD. It shows how easy it is to get it wrong when we haven't been there.



Iqbal,

I'm sorry, were you there? No you were not. He did not just tell Dan he thought it was a bad tournament. If Cam told you that, he straight lied to your face, and you bought it hook line and sinker. The Jerk belittled Dan in front of 2 Major sponsors, A hole slew of Volunteers, and worst of all for him in front of the NT Marshal. It was a temper tantrum like a 3 year old! Please refrain speaking about any of this crap you know nothing about! By the way I was the person who complained along with others. I spoke with the PDGA about it. You got anything to say to me like I have an agenda? Do you wish to slander me? What he did was wrong and will ALWAYS be wrong. If Tiger did what he did to a TD in public he would not be playing either. If you wish to speak to me in private PM me and I will call you on my dime! I'm still disappointed he got to play in the worlds!

The worst is:

He insulted Dan by saying and I quote "the only reason you do this tournament is to get your name on the check to the Leukemia Society" He confirmed that to me to my face after he said it to Dan.

I don't know about you but if you were to insult me buy dragging my best friend for 20 or more years that died 7 years ago, I don't know how I would keep myself from tearing in to you like Dan did not. Dan is a bigger man than I am.

Please tell me I am not telling the truth……

 

[Jackal]

New ultiworld article, that Mcbeth said "exactly. Thank you." to:

http://discgolf.ultiworld.com/2016/09/12/pdga-communication-missing-piece-williams-suspension-saga/

 

[Jay Dub]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned here or maybe I missed it:

McBeth boycotting a tournament(s) hurts the TD and other volunteers of those tournaments more than the PDGA or any other entity. I hope he took that into consideration.

Like most times, boycotting the big guy/gal only hurts the little guy/gal.

Old India proverb: "When elephants fight, it's the grass that suffers".

 

[araytx]

I personally feel the livelihood argument is flimsy at best. Bradley made a choice to be a touring pro, and with that choice comes the discipline process offered. I understand that, and I'm not in the camp that feels the PDGA has stripped him of anything.

Related to that, though, I respectfully argue that the PDGA is not the typical workplace, and as such the typical workplace protections of privacy do not apply. There is a growing public interest in professional disc golf. People consume it online, the PDGA contributes to that with its social media and live coverage of events, and there are various discussion outlets and forums. As such, the organization can adapt to the new media landscape by offering a more transparent process in its discipline. I would never expect the PDGA to air details of incidents or mention anyone in its announcements other than the player being disciplined. But simply dropping a name on a website for anyone to find and then post on other forums is an outdated measure compared to where the public focus on the sport is, and a change can be made in that regard. A good start would be adding the specified infraction back to the discipline list, as well as issuing a short press release if the player suspended is in the top 50 (or other determined threshold) in the world rankings. I don't think this will happen in Bradley's case, but it can be an easy fix for the future that brings the PDGA in line with other publicly viewed sports organizations.

I just respectfully disagree. First of all saying "the organization can adapt" hardly makes anything compelling. Optional at most. Second, if those kinds of changes are needed and/or are what the majority of members want, then the answer is simple. Elect Board members who stand on that platform. Get involved as a member or group of members supporting such a candidate and see if the membership supports that platform being elected to the Board. As I've stated, "The PDGA" isn't a "they." It's an "us".

Who is on the disciplinary committee? I couldn't find out who was on it by going to the website. That seems like something that PDGA members should know.

The decision to suspend is the Board's.
http://www.pdga.com/pdga-disciplinary-process

Two opinions I've developed reading this thread and all the information on this:

1. Williams suspension of 18 months is very much justifiable, if Dollar's account of the situation is accurate (I'm giving the PDGA benefit of the doubt that it was corroborated until I hear otherwise).
   
   In order of importance, the factors of 18 months are:
   • He was on probation. So it's correct as it was pointed out, right away we're talking about a 6 month suspension as the punishment for the act, add on the probation.
   • Williams wrongdoing was an act of physical aggression and that's a very big deal for a game of Disc Golf. You could take all the verbal fouls possible and then pile them in the 0-2 months category of suspension, IMO. But as soon as physical contact is involved, 6 months is the bare minimum I think.
   • So far as I can tell, Williams has never taken responsibility for any of his past transgressions, and his statement makes it apparent he doesn't for this either. Every statement I've seen from him on any transgression is just a series of excuses. If I'm the PDGA, just like in any court of law, a lack of accountability and remorse is a factor in the punishment. Various people are saying he's worked hard on changing, but his back story reads like he's just working harder on not getting caught, and some people can't tell the difference. If his statement to the PDGA was similar to his public statement, the image he paints is of a guy who's not changed at all.
2. Paul McBeth's intentions are good, but he's doing it wrong. I can see merit to an argument that the PDGA should provide more public information on suspensions of touring pros, but it's not a clear cut argument and certainly not "protest worthy". When I read McBeth's statement, my first through was that it was unfortunate our sport is in such a state that McBeth doesn't have an agent or other consultation on how to go about making his point more effectively. To elaborate on that:
   • Nobody should react until Williams has received his letter from the PDGA and posted it for the world to see. Even if the PDGA does discuss the matter publicly, they wouldn't until the player has been informed first.
   • If the issue is the use of a certified letter to the home address of the player, then I'll hear that... perhaps a copy of the letter should be CC'd via email to the player. But that's a very small issue and doesn't undermine the PDGA's decision at all.
   • If Williams gets a letter from the PDGA and doesn't make it public, I'm less inclined to believe there's anything wrong with the process. What seems to be a core issue here is the PDGA's communication with Williams, and if the letter he gets is insufficient in outlining their decision, let's discuss that then.
   • If Williams gets the letter and it lays out the reason for their decision and the evidence used to come to that decision, I'm 100% satisfied with the process and the privacy approach. It should be up to the player to make that public if they don't like the decision.
   • I'm still open to the idea that the complaint against Williams is exaggerated or uncorroborated, but I don't think we have any evidence of that yet. There could have been any number of witnesses who stepped forward and backed up Dollar's account word for word, but should their names be made public record by the PDGA? Highly debatable. That would really undermine the process.

A lot of solid points there.

 

[alfonseski]

I am leaving for the GMC tomorrow and we are fired up for it! Now all of the wind is blown out of the sails of this tourney because some guy who has a HISTORY of acting like a jerk. Acted like a jerk one too many times, and paid the price. So in comes Paul mcbeth who btw is innova sponsored who is for the World tour not the Pro tour. Decides to defend the guy who should not be defended and screw over our tourney. odd....

 

[stratedge]

Interesting. Could this new knowledge (not just for your but others) perhaps lead to more reporting and more discipline?

I bet so, I'm actually interested to see if the PDGA gets a deluge of complaints filed next year and has to make an adjustment to handle them all. Just going by reactions, it seems a lot of people didn't know about this aspect of the PDGA. Will people abuse the system? It won't take many doing so to overwhelm the process.

 

[zj1002]

New ultiworld article, that Mcbeth said "exactly. Thank you." to:

http://discgolf.ultiworld.com/2016/09/12/pdga-communication-missing-piece-williams-suspension-saga/

:clap::hfive::clap::hfive::clap:

 

[juju]

My sources say that the PDGA will be releasing and official statement sometime today.

 

[stratedge]

Yes, you would think that. However we don't always know what kind of mindset our competitors are in. Especially when they are playing for food, lodging and travel expenses. Dollar should have not threatened him or engaged in the back and forth arguing. But he did.

About 10ft from the tee we were going to pass each other, and as we did he stepped into me with his shoulder. I immediately questioned him about it.

Matt has clearly stated both that he perceived the contact as intentional, and that he confronted him about it.

You seem to be approaching this discussion from some kind of alternative reality in which it is presumed that everything Matt said is wrong, and everything Bradley did was accidental and with the best of intentions.

From both the stories told, Matt Dollar comes off like he did exactly the right thing in this scenario. Even Williams doesn't dare question that. He talks with Williams about the contact and in doing so gives him ample chance to apologize and check himself for the rest of the round. He gives him a chance to apologize. Presumably (if we give Matt even a little bit of a benefit of the doubt), we don't know that he would have reported the shoulder incident on it's own if that were the end of it. After that, Williams compounds the situation by then walking up in front of Dollar while he's throwing, and arguing with him when he first asks him to get back. It takes a courtesy violation from a 3rd party before he gets back. The second action after the first basically says, "just in case you weren't sure if I was intentionally being a douche or not, let me be sure to clarify it for everyone". A guy on probation for poor sportsmanship should have not just walked back from the fairway, but ran and dove behind the tee all while apologizing profusely. Manage the situation you put yourself in.

I don't trust the judgement of anyone who looks at all that and questions Dollar's behaviour in those circumstances before they question Williams.

 

[lyleoross]

New ultiworld article, that Mcbeth said "exactly. Thank you." to:

http://discgolf.ultiworld.com/2016/09/12/pdga-communication-missing-piece-williams-suspension-saga/

Two and three are fine, one is risky. What happens when someone is on the downside of the list by one slot and gets left off. Also, just because someone wrote this on their news blog doesn't make it right. I don't need Utili or Paul to tell me that communication is an issue here. Nor do I need anyone to tell me that what happened isn't being clearly communicated and that there are unspoken agendas. What I do know is like in the Cam case, what happened on the ground is likely very different than what Utili thinks, as it appears he didn't interview all witnesses, something the DC is obliged to do.

Yep, the PDGA needs better communication, but not because they did something wrong, but because a few prominent voices are assuming they did something wrong.

 

[biscoe]

BW was here making an ass of himself just a couple weeks later with the disciplinary action hanging over his head. I believe "F*ck this course and everyone here" was the quote in front of the gallery.

 

[lyleoross]

Matt has clearly stated both that he perceived the contact as intentional, and that he confronted him about it.

You seem to be approaching this discussion from some kind of alternative reality in which it is presumed that everything Matt said is wrong, and everything Bradley did was accidental and with the best of intentions.

From both the stories told, Matt Dollar comes off like he did exactly the right thing in this scenario. Even Williams doesn't dare question that. He talks with Williams about the contact and in doing so gives him ample chance to apologize and check himself for the rest of the round. He gives him a chance to apologize. Presumably (if we give Matt even a little bit of a benefit of the doubt), we don't know that he would have reported the shoulder incident on it's own if that were the end of it. After that, Williams compounds the situation by then walking up in front of Dollar while he's throwing, and arguing with him when he first asks him to get back. It takes a courtesy violation from a 3rd party before he gets back. The second action after the first basically says, "just in case you weren't sure if I was intentionally being a douche or not, let me be sure to clarify it for everyone". A guy on probation for poor sportsmanship should have not just walked back from the fairway, but ran and dove behind the tee all while apologizing profusely. Manage the situation you put yourself in.

I don't trust the judgement of anyone who looks at all that and questions Dollar's behaviour in those circumstances before they question Williams.

Favorite statement of the day. "Just in case you're not sure I'm being a douche, let me do this to make it clear."

 

[unclemercy]

ulti like ultimate not utili.

Two and three are fine, one is risky. What happens when someone is on the downside of the list by one slot and gets left off. Also, just because someone wrote this on their news blog doesn't make it right. I don't need Utili or Paul to tell me that communication is an issue here. Nor do I need anyone to tell me that what happened isn't being clearly communicated and that there are unspoken agendas. What I do know is like in the Cam case, what happened on the ground is likely very different than what Utili thinks, as it appears he didn't interview all witnesses, something the DC is obliged to do.

Yep, the PDGA needs better communication, but not because they did something wrong, but because a few prominent voices are assuming they did something wrong.

 

[onemilemore]

Two and three are fine, one is risky. What happens when someone is on the downside of the list by one slot and gets left off. Also, just because someone wrote this on their news blog doesn't make it right. I don't need Utili or Paul to tell me that communication is an issue here. Nor do I need anyone to tell me that what happened isn't being clearly communicated and that there are unspoken agendas. What I do know is like in the Cam case, what happened on the ground is likely very different than what Utili thinks, as it appears he didn't interview all witnesses, something the DC is obliged to do.

Yep, the PDGA needs better communication, but not because they did something wrong, but because a few prominent voices are assuming they did something wrong.

Regarding point number one, the players who are on that list are appearing on video at public tournaments. As such, they relinquish their privacy much like most other professional athletes.

I interviewed everyone who would talk to me about the situation and made efforts to interview others as well. I can only do with the information provided. I don't really have an opinion on the facts of the case - I am sure there is more to it than we'll all ever know - just simply trying to get the story communicated.

I am in agreement that the PDGA hasn't done anything nefarious here. I'd chalk all of this up to a lack of foresight and maybe not recognizing that there is a higher level of public interest in the sport now than in years past.

 

[juju]

BW was here making an ass of himself just a couple weeks later with the disciplinary action hanging over his head. I believe "F*ck this course and everyone here" was the quote in front of the gallery.

He was overheard using numerous homophobic slurs during the majestic this year.

 

[Streets]

So does anyone think BW shouldn't just be banned for life? lol

 

[araytx]

New ultiworld article, that Mcbeth said "exactly. Thank you." to:

http://discgolf.ultiworld.com/2016/09/12/pdga-communication-missing-piece-williams-suspension-saga/

Interesting article. Sounds like a lot of bureaucracy for this single case... Plus, as with anything people say "needs to happen", people like me then ask the follow up question, "...and WHO is going to pay for that?" If Steve Hill's suggestions are adopted, we, the members are gonna end up paying for more staff time to make that happen. And at a time when lots of us are debating the "added cash" and "player pack" issues, we're gonna add more people to the PDGFA office. Not sure what we, the membership, are getting from his four-pronged process will be worth what we pay for it.

 

[juju]

So does anyone think BW shouldn't just be banned for life? lol

WHEN he gets another suspension, it will most likely be permanent. Keyword WHEN.

 

[onemilemore]

Interesting article. Sounds like a lot of bureaucracy for this single case... Plus, as with anything people say "needs to happen", people like me then ask the follow up question, "...and WHO is going to pay for that?" If Steve Hill's suggestions are adopted, we, the members are gonna end up paying for more staff time to make that happen. And at a time when lots of us are debating the "added cash" and "player pack" issues, we're gonna add more people to the PDGFA office. Not sure what we, the membership, are getting from his four-pronged process will be worth what we pay for it.

This is definitely a fair point. PDGA has a media manager in Matt Gregoire. I would imagine the Disciplinary Committee could pass along its ruling and he could easily issue the statement on the PDGA's website and social media outlets. I can't see how that equates to more money being needed.

I don't see this as about a single case. It's about moving forward in the future. As the sport grows, there will likely be more discipline, and it can be communicated more openly.