USDGC organizing committee is crap

[lyleoross]

Fair enough.

But are live webcasts seen by a few thousand disc golf diehards really important to disc golf overall?

Possibly. If your mission is to grow the sport, and money in the sport, it has to come from somewhere. If we are conceding that we can't build a viewer base already, then where does that money come from? I've been reading the counter arguments to growth for twenty years, and yet, year in year out, I've seen the sport grow to a fairly large presence. Any time I carry discs with me, I get more than a little recognition. That is opposed to the nice weights comments I used to get.

The argument of social media vs live isn't a credible one. I'm gonna argue that you will need both long term. No one is going to replace live tackle football, baseball, and basketball with twitter feeds. Social media doesn't carry the dynamic interface in quite the way that live does. My college team mixes the two, with fans watching the live stream, while commenting on how much the team stinks on a social thread. Similar to the live broadcasts from Smashboxx. It actually makes a community.

As for the few thousand disc golf diehards. Yeah, sort of. The broadcast guys have already pointed out, that number is kind of low, it is more in the 30,000 range, what with people coming and going over an entire round. And yes, that is for a major. That's a pretty large base, and more than a few diehards. Even 5,000, is more than a few diehards, considering where the sport started, in terms of live broadcasts. If our notion is that it's going to jump to 10,000 or 100,000 without time and investment, then we don't understand how to grow a small business.

The news industry has put the lie to the notion that you have to have a big viewership on TV to make it. There are a number of boutique broadcasts that are YouTube only, that actually do very well, including a full scale network, TYT. The model is membership driven, but also includes some free material to bring in new viewers. Add in the YouTube ad revenue, and they can squeak by.

The media world is changing, and it is hard to know whether broadcast disc golf will succeed, yet, or not. But giving over on it before we've even started might be a mistake.

All of that aside, the second guessing the financial decisions of WDGT is profitless, their gig. Second guessing Jussi's numbers, well, given that they are way off what the experts, that is, the guys who actually broadcast, tell us, makes me wonder why Jussi is making it up? I suspect at some level he didn't plan for it, and instead of saying that, he's trying to make himself look better. That Jussi turned down a free ride from the PDGA just emphasizes that point.

 

[DanJon]

Where was the PDGA going to pull the funds from to pay for this?

Was it already earmarked for media expenditures?

Or was it going to come out of Brian Graham's per diem?

 

[JRW III]

How about, the USDGC guys are making all the effort and expense, it's their show, they can live-broadcast or not, as they wish?

Bingo.

Money talks.

When the live broadcast can generate enough money for the event (either through advertising, subscription, or a combination), then they can have influence over an event and come in at the last minute. Until then, it is at the discretion of the event organizers. There can be a number of reasons why the event organizer is passing that we don't know about.

 

[lyleoross]

Where was the PDGA going to pull the funds from to pay for this?

Was it already earmarked for media expenditures?

Or was it going to come out of Brian Graham's per diem?

Does it matter? The PDGA is member owned organization that works on a democratic basis. Their accounting records are available on the website, all of them. We voted them into office and gave them a mandate, grow the sport. Specifically, grow the Pro sport. The survey has been done more than once.

Their notion is that growing the sport includes live broadcast of the USDGC. If as members, we disagree, we can run for the Board, based on that platform. If the membership agrees that live broadcast is a fundamentally unsound use of our money, we can vote for someone running on that platform.

You can also run on a platform of replace Brian Graham. I would remind you though that he doesn't act in a vacuum. He works with the Board. That means, a candidate running on such platforms has to replace enough of the Board to bring that idea to fruition.

The underlying notion that Brian has lots o' money and is being paid some serious bucks seems, well, kind of silly to me. I've seen such suggestions dozens of times and they always give me a chuckle. I work in the business world and what executives skim, in both private and public companies, boggles the mind. You see none of that here. The Brian is getting rich thing is a lot like the teachers are getting rich thing. Fundamentally untrue.

 

[onemilemore]

Where was the PDGA going to pull the funds from to pay for this?

Was it already earmarked for media expenditures?

Or was it going to come out of Brian Graham's per diem?

Gregoire said he has money left over in the media budget from this season. He did not give specifics as to what the number was.

 

[JC17393]

Where was the PDGA going to pull the funds from to pay for this?

Was it already earmarked for media expenditures?

Or was it going to come out of Brian Graham's per diem?

They have a media budget overseen by the Media Manager, Matt Gregoire. My understanding of the story is that Gregoire found that he enough funds in that account to cover costs for live coverage at USDGC if necessary, so that's where the conversation began.

The PDGA only "owns" one Major that offers Open divisions - Pro Worlds - where hosts bid on hosting it. All other Majors with Open divisions are owned by others and have various levels of cooperation and support from the PDGA.

Unless you're talking about just the MPO division as an "Open" division, in which case you should not be pluralizing divisions, you're incorrect. US Women's is also a major with an Open division (FPO) for which the PDGA seeks bids from hosts. No one "owns" that event except the PDGA.

And speaking as someone who just took part in running that major, requiring live coverage there would have been a non-starter. Live video coverage would have been impossible. Heck, live scoring was a struggle with the signal quality at the course. I think until that aspect of live coverage is addressed, there's no conceivable way to require it of any tournament. And really the only remedy is either time (improved signal through the building of more towers and better networks) or money (to pay for satellite equipment). Not sure the PDGA or anyone can magically make either of those things happen.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Unless you're talking about just the MPO division as an "Open" division, in which case you should not be pluralizing divisions, you're incorrect. US Women's is also a major with an Open division (FPO) for which the PDGA seeks bids from hosts. No one "owns" that event except the PDGA.

I did mean Open divisions including women, and no, the USWDGC does not include both Open divisions.

 

[DavidSauls]

Possibly. If your mission is to grow the sport, and money in the sport, it has to come from somewhere. If we are conceding that we can't build a viewer base already, then where does that money come from? I've been reading the counter arguments to growth for twenty years, and yet, year in year out, I've seen the sport grow to a fairly large presence.

There's a distinction between (1) Grow the Sport - the participation sport and (2) Grow the Sport - the spectator sport. The first has been doing great.

I have doubts that the second will ever happen.

Of course, I could be dead wrong. But if so, would sinking considerable money into live webcasts be what propels it?

 

[lyleoross]

There's a distinction between (1) Grow the Sport - the participation sport and (2) Grow the Sport - the spectator sport. The first has been doing great.

I have doubts that the second will ever happen.

Of course, I could be dead wrong. But if so, would sinking considerable money into live webcasts be what propels it?

Good point. I will say that the arguments concerning growing viewership are the same ones I read about growing the bas 20 years ago. I as on the it won't happen side. Mids me consider more carefully this time.

 

[DanJon]

Lyle, I asked a simple question (with a tongue in cheek comment) and you seem to take it personally, not my intention. I do find it funny though, how anytime someone questions the PDGA, the answer is, "well why don't you run then?" As if that's the only way to affect change in the organization.

I've worked at non-profits before, it's all well and good to get on a BOD, but does little when going up against a majority.

How often is there turnover in the positions there? Has anyone actually ever been voted out of office? And do I have to get my Master's or PhD before I will be considered?

 

[lyleoross]

Good point. I will say that the arguments concerning growing viewership are the same ones I read about growing the base 20 years ago. I was on the, it won't happen side. Makes me consider more carefully this time.

Wow, should have paid more attention.

 

[DiscFifty]

That, or a live-feed producer can sell access in advance, and cancel if they don't get it. Which, of course, will reduce their odds of success.

Oh for sure they would have to fund it in advance to find out if they had the cash flow to make it happen, hell I suggested that weeks ago. Fund the live footage, and then get extra cash from the long term views (of the archived live footage) on YouTube. I don't see how...that's not a win/win for everyone involved.

 

[DavidSauls]

Oh for sure they would have to fund it in advance to find out if they had the cash flow to make it happen, hell I suggested that weeks ago. Fund the live footage, and then get extra cash from the long term views (of the archived live footage) on YouTube. I don't see how...that's not a win/win for everyone involved.

I agree. The trick is getting enough people to not just pay for it, but pay for it in advance, so the producers know to go ahead. Ever try to get disc golfers to register in advance, for an event that won't fill?

But, yeah, if they get it, they can proceed knowing that last-minute subscriptions, and anything subsequent, are profit.

 

[august dupree]

We are now starting to hear Trump-isms style statements (aka total bull**** arguements) coming from the USDGC organizers...

Here's mine:

Make the USDGC Great Again

 

[SD86]

Here's mine:

Make the USDGC Great Again

:thmbup:

 

[Streets]

Just don't let the DGWT anywhere near it.

 

[SD86]

All I know is that Jussi's original excuse not to have live coverage was money. The PDGA cut the knees out of that excuse by offering to pay for it. In retaliatory reaction, Jussi refused, IMHO out of sheer spite.. Jussi spit in everyone's face because his excuse was called out. That was an incredibly poor decision, reflects badly (maybe fatally?) upon the DGWT, and only Hurricane Matthew may have saved Jussi and the DGWT from even worse ramifications. JMHO, YMMV.

 

[RistoS]

I'm sorry but that claim about "sheer spite" is absolute bull****. The way Jussi works with live coverage requires more time than what was given, though money is always a factor since there's a Ltd company behind DGWT.

 

[cheese dog]

There was time for terry and the boys to put together everything for some nice live round coverage. His decision was the wrong one and he will pay for it.

 

[SD86]

I'm sorry but that claim about "sheer spite" is absolute bull****. The way Jussi works with live coverage requires more time than what was given, though money is always a factor since there's a Ltd company behind DGWT.

The PDGA put up the money and Smashboxx was ready to do their excellent job; ergo, there was no time requirement nor money requirement of Jussi. It is my opinion that Jussi refused because they exposed his excuse that the money wasn't there, and my opinion that Jussi did this out of spite, when he had a chance to work with the PDGA and Smashboxx in a spirit of cooperation.

And again IMHO, Jussi's decision has deeply harmed the DGWT and Disc Golf overall. I know I won't be watching DGWT post productions if there is no live coverage to go with it; I am boycotting Jussi, and urge others to consider doing the same.

Side note: I loved Paige Pierce standing up to these guys and putting out coverage of the closing ceremony. Way to go Paige!