Great article about AM divisions.

[numbernine]

https://discgolf.ultiworld.com/2018/08/06/time-rethink-pdgas-amateur-divisions-organized/

Not my article, but this has been a talking point in our area all year at tournaments. I think there are loads of good points made here.

 

[GoobyPls]

What percentage of active members are Open vs. Ams?

 

[_MTL_]

The amount of divisions and reducing them is way over discussed and is a non-issue.

The only time you actually see a bunch of divisions is at really larger events, which is totally fine. The top events should showcase the best players in age brackets.

Local events mostly only have MPO, MP40, FPO, MA1, MA40, MA50, MA2, MA3 and FA1 which is a very good range of players.

If you have 6 guys in the their 60s that show up to your C tier and you don't let them play the division they want, you are missing the big picture.

 

[Cgkdisc]

The bigger problem in terms of number of divisions is in Master age and older. And there are some who want Intermediate divisions within each of them.

 

[TimSyl]

I'm an AM 3 rated Grandmaster aged player who plays AM3, AM2, MA50, or MA40 depending on the tournament. There are too many divisions, we surely can't add more?????

 

[numbernine]

The amount of divisions and reducing them is way over discussed and is a non-issue.

I totally disagree with you. And, as evidenced by my discussion with another person that brought it up at the B Tier I played on Saturday, other people are talking about it too. Soooo....

The only time you actually see a bunch of divisions is at really larger events, which is totally fine. The top events should showcase the best players in age brackets.

Local events mostly only have MPO, MP40, FPO, MA1, MA40, MA50, MA2, MA3 and FA1 which is a very good range of players.

And entirely too many divisions. Dudes under 50 shouldn't be age protected. Sorry. I play MP40 and MA40, and there is no reason for us not to be playing Advanced or Open. I play age protected because it is there.

If you have 6 guys in the their 60s that show up to your C tier and you don't let them play the division they want, you are missing the big picture.

is the big picture that we've conditioned every in disc golf to come and expect a prize? Because that seems to be the "big picture" that a lot of people have come to want.

 

[_MTL_]

is the big picture that we've conditioned every in disc golf to come and expect a prize? Because that seems to be the "big picture" that a lot of people have come to want.

I get where you are coming from. I really do.

My example of 60 year olds was just about retention. These guys don't want to play with 18 year olds. Hell I'm 34 and don't.

If anything needs to be done, it's rating caps on amateur age protected divisions. But that's all I would support at this time.

 

[Audible Vibration]

I thought this was a great article, and has also has been a topic of conversation at local tournaments. I don't exactly agree with their suggestions for the two am divisions, but think it's better than the current system. I live in a rural area where everyone plays above their rating. I'm currently 860 rated, with 0 wins, and it has been suggested to me that I play intermediate. I like the writer's more clearly defined guidelines, as well as 875 being the cutoff for casual vs competitive Am.

 

[DavidSauls]

TDs can already do a lot of this, by limiting divisions offered. Think no age-protected divisions is a good idea? Don't have them, and force the geezers to play with the kids. Thank there are too many Am divisions? Just offer Advanced and Recreational---one for under 900, one for over, and force people to play in big divisions.

But the rub is that you can't actually force people....they have the option to not come.

 

[DavidSauls]

I often wonder if these proposals are by people who don't want to change themselves, but want to coerce other people into joining their division so there are more people to compete with (or beat).

 

[1978]

Article reads well and is thoughtful. Im glad they briefly touched on the topic of forcing ams that reach a certain level open.

1. The UNFORTUNATE GOOD ROUND
We had an Am in Charlotte rated 1024. He was probably a 915 rated player. He just threw the round of his life on the only course he ever plays at a 20 person PDGA singles league event. In this scenario because he was over 950 he would have to pay pro prices and throw 4 915 rated rounds to go back to the under 950. Likely this type of player would never play again. He knows his skills and knows he is INT at BEST. This would happen to a ton of players.

2. SANDBAGGING
A ratings cap and forced move up would literally make something happen that NEVER happens, sandbagging. If you were winning an event by 5, knowing estimated ratings for certain scores over well played courses...you could miss putts and drives on purpose to keep a round rated low and not move you from 940 to 950. This would actually make true sandbaggers...and incentivize them to actually sandbag. Currently in my 10 years, I have never heard of someone actually sandbagging. (playing bad to qualify for a handicapped division.

3. ROB THE SPORT
All this model ultimately does; even with merch vouchers...is force players with no business to play for cash into divisions they cant hope to compete in. Now, many sports do this, however, disc golf is almost completely player funded. Sure there are some guidelines for payout but only the smallest amount of money comes from sponsors outside the sport. Most of pro payouts in local events comes from the am's buyin. THAT IS TERRIBLE In small events, forcing ams to play open pushes more money to pros, the pros that dont play leagues, dont buy discs, dont volunteer their time and money to support the courses and dont buy club memberships.
Growth should be from the outside community investing in the sport.
Pros should not be subsidized by forcing Ams to basically give them money. If a 1024 rated pro shows up to your B-Tier...its far more cost effective for you the 950 rated player to PP that guy $65 instead of traveling to the event. If you are local, wouldn't you just save your money for local dubz and singles? If you play that open event, you might not be able to afford leagues for a month.

If the PDGA instituted forced open based on ratings it would destroy the smaller disc golf density areas and pull money directly out of what is the only thing that really drives disc golf growth.

Well designed, properly maintained, SAFE disc golf courses. With out ams this money walks. One hole with a basket 4 ft from a river, or a fairway that hasnt been mowed in 4 months can sour the family with the 3 pack starter kit. That Family will never play disc golf again.

 

[brutalbrutus]

I don't really agree with how the writer went about correcting the "problem" but division consolidation is an issue I hear of frequently from players at events.

Personally, as a 877 rated player, I consider shooting 930-940 nearly perfect playing for me. I have only broken 940 a few times in 4 years of playing events. If you force me to play in a division stacked with 940-950 rated players, I am probably not going to attend. I could care less about prizes, I like competition because its fun to compete. So, if I have to shoot PB rounds just to hang with guys playing average, that doesn't sound like fun to me...

I mostly play INT because I can beat the top guys even when they are playing above their ratings. Does it happen often? No, but I cant beat 948 rated players playing above their ratings, at all...and at this point, I don't see my skills improving much.

 

[1978]

The article writer should focus his time on growing the sport by writing articles why it is important to have courses designed by designers that are actually good. And imploring people in low density areas to maintain or petition their local park staff to maintain courses. This will actually grow participation in the sport which will increase play at smaller local events. The key to getting more competitive events is to do the opposite of what most suggest. It is better for disc golf as a sport to not allow lower skilled players to play Pro. If you are not rated 975, you cannot play Open. That will drive profitability of the local disc golf scene and help them grow the sport in the ways i suggested.

 

[wolfmandragon]

1978, that is very well thought out and written.

 

[lyleoross]

I often wonder if these proposals are by people who don't want to change themselves, but want to coerce other people into joining their division so there are more people to compete with (or beat).

Bingo. If everyone plays in my division, I'll win more plastic and can sell more plastic and make more money. Cripes.

 

[bbwrenn]

I often wonder if these proposals are by people who don't want to change themselves, but want to coerce other people into joining their division so there are more people to compete with (or beat).

I've often felt the same way. It seems like most of the time I see people propose these plans of "reducing divisions", they conveniently end up on the top end of a proposed division. Just anecdotal evidence against the plans, but it does smell a bit fishy a large amount of the time.

As for the article, for most amateur players, 876 to 950 is waaaay too big of a gap. As someone rated exactly 876, I'd never bother to play a PDGA again. It's not that I'm all about winning, I've only won a whopping 4% of the events I've ever played (3/74), it's just that the whole point of competing is to do your best and see if you CAN pull off a victory. A victory for an 876 player against a 950 rated player is very, very unlikely over 2 rounds, and a near impossibility over 4. (paging Chuck K. for the actual statistics...)

Personally, I always see these articles as much ado about nothing. My opinion is that any division with 8-10+ people is a worthy test of your skill. People who say those divisions are too small are playing the wrong game. We don't have the numbers to support massive divisions that are ALSO competitive. On the flip side, if you only have say 4 or 5 in a division, yeah, winning may not mean as much, but if that's the particular folks you wanted to play with, then more power to you. If there's not enough of your preferred folks, then you have to decide if you're willing to play a different division, or sit this one out.

Maybe we'll see a day down the road where we can have an amateur masters only C tier or a women's only B tier and see those events actually FILL UP. Personally, I'd love to see that day and look forward to being able to help TD or volunteer at those events.

 

[numbernine]

I often wonder if these proposals are by people who don't want to change themselves, but want to coerce other people into joining their division so there are more people to compete with (or beat).

I don't think it is either of those things.
From my perspective, as a TD, it would be easier to host a tournament if there were less divisions. Yeah, yeah, offer less divisions then. Not that easy. You can say it, but doing so would earn you the scorn of the ams that wanted to play Novice.
Too, as someone that plays an age protected division, it would force me over to advanced and actually make me work on my game.I feel like my level of disc golf would go up. yes, I could do that now. But since I CAN play MP40, I do.

Trophy making. Payout. Organization. Cards at tournaments. The arguments about bagging and playing up and all that crap...all simplified or made to not exist if there are less divisions.
Also, and I keep saying it in my day to day conversations, so pardon me if I sound practiced, I think it is bad for the sport to encourage paying out 15 guys in a field of 35 disc golfers , in the lowest rated division. Maybe that's another discussion? But the payout situation is hilarious. Dudes getting 30 bucks in merch for getting 10th in Rec or Int has always rubbed me the wrong way. (I'll leave that alone and make the conversation about divisions. But it does tie in, IMHO).

 

[numbernine]

I've often felt the same way. It seems like most of the time I see people propose these plans of "reducing divisions", they conveniently end up on the top end of a proposed division. Just anecdotal evidence against the plans, but it does smell a bit fishy a large amount of the time...

...Maybe we'll see a day down the road where we can have an amateur masters only C tier or a women's only B tier and see those events actually FILL UP. Personally, I'd love to see that day and look forward to being able to help TD or volunteer at those events.

I'd bet that most of the time, these articles are written by people who DO TD events. Not a shot at you at all. About the first time I organize and run a sanctioned event, I was like "why in the hell are there so many divisions?". heh.

I'm all about the consolidation of these divisions, and I am no threat to be at the top of either.

 

[DavidSauls]

When I began playing in the 90s, things were much as this article suggests. Without the ratings and the bumps.

We had Pros, and two amateur divisions, called Amateur and Advanced Amateur. We also had age-protected divisions, but very few players in them (even though Masters started at 35).

There were no ratings, but social pressure. Often a win or two was enough to move up. But you couldn't move back if it turned out to be a mistake. The phrase used was "Move up....move up.....move out" because many people would just quit playing tournaments, rather than pay to be in a non-competitive situation.

On the other hand.....the fields in each division were much larger, which I loved. Not for winning, which I never did, but for just having a bunch of people to play with over the weekend instead of the same ones over and over, and for having 8 cards in a division so you could make big moves up. Or down. "Lead card" really meant something. I miss that.

But the explosion of divisions is more than just making everyone a winner. It's what people want---to play with people of similar skill levels, or similar ages (for social reasons).

 

[biscoe]

TDs can already do a lot of this, by limiting divisions offered. Think no age-protected divisions is a good idea? Don't have them, and force the geezers to play with the kids. Thank there are too many Am divisions? Just offer Advanced and Recreational---one for under 900, one for over, and force people to play in big divisions.

But the rub is that you can't actually force people....they have the option to not come.

yep. the best thing about the pdga is that td's can structure their events how they deem best. cookie cutter solutions to non-problems such as espoused in the article just serve to stifle innovation.