Great article about AM divisions.

[Future_Primitive]

At least you aren't bitter or angry.

Your lack of reading comprehension is astounding. :doh:

You're the one mad about bad events and bad TD's, just pointing out it is a few bad apples causing it. But go ahead attack the poster and not the argument is seems to be par for the course for bitter DGCR hater MTL. Not even sure why I bother to reply to a grown man child who cried his way into boycotting a website. Chin up Robbie.

 

[_MTL_]

Your lack of reading comprehension is astounding. :doh:

You're the one mad about bad events and bad TD's, just pointing out it is a few bad apples causing it. But go ahead attack the poster and not the argument is seems to be par for the course for bitter DGCR hater MTL. Not even sure why I bother to reply to a grown man child who cried his way into boycotting a website. Chin up Robbie.

Yet, you did it again.

Or did I misread you saying you don't understand why you respond to me in your response to me?

 

[Future_Primitive]

The old rubber and glue is all you got? You post about not paying TDs to get yourself the attention you crave from internet strangers and then refuse to back it up. Why should qualified TDs not get paid for spending 8-12 hours on a weekend running PDGA events? Why should the PDGA get $3 a head for doing nothing at all but the person running said even get a big pat on the back?

 

[_MTL_]

The old rubber and glue is all you got? You post about not paying TDs to get yourself the attention you crave from internet strangers and then refuse to back it up. Why should qualified TDs not get paid for spending 8-12 hours on a weekend running PDGA events? Why should the PDGA get $3 a head for doing nothing at all but the person running said even get a big pat on the back?

Speaking of reading comprehension issues...

The post that YOU replied to that started this I said about why not to pay the TD:

"TDing is volunteering. There are already enough bad events and bad TD's. Encouraging payment to these isn't a good thing at all."

So I'm not sure why I haven't answered the question. It's ok that you don't agree with me.

Saying the PDGA does nothing is simply wrong, however.

The following things are what an event being sanctioned by the PDGA get's that a regular event does not:

- Advertising of event on PDGA Tour Schedule which includes a registration list, link to TD information and link to flyer if the TD chooses.
- PDGA Tour standards / rules applied to event (I've played non-sanctioned events that said "we don't like XXX rule that the PDGA has, so we aren't playing it).
- Round ratings
- Points
- A place to post results
- Insurance
- Legitimizes event (helps with fundraising)

You can argue that their output isn't worth $3 / head, but saying they do nothing is flat out ignorance and pretty much par of the course for you. And FYI, it's $2 / head for C Tiers.

 

[DavidSauls]

If the PDGA did nothing for the $3, TDs wouldn't sanction.

 

[_MTL_]

If the PDGA did nothing for the $3, TDs wouldn't sanction.

Exactly. You can easily argue that they don't provide $2-4 / head of value, but to say they do nothing is so beyond wrong, it's sad.

Considering the source, I'm not surprised, however. Maybe one day FP will get over his obsession with disagreeing with everything I say.

 

[DavidSauls]

TDs are already getting paid in many cases---with the margin on the Am merch. I'm just in favor of ending that charade and paying them directly.

How much profit there is depends on fixed costs---particularly, whether it costs much to rent the course.

Whether it goes to their pocket, or the club, course, tournament amenities, pro payouts, excess am payouts, or elsewhere, is up to them.

 

[_MTL_]

TDs are already getting paid in many cases---with the margin on the Am merch. I'm just in favor of ending that charade and paying them directly.

How much profit there is depends on fixed costs---particularly, whether it costs much to rent the course.

Whether it goes to their pocket, or the club, course, tournament amenities, pro payouts, excess am payouts, or elsewhere, is up to them.

The way that TD's make money through profits on merch is another reason I'm anti-paying TD's. As you stated, they already make funds through that.

 

[DavidSauls]

The way that TD's make money through profits on merch is another reason I'm anti-paying TD's. As you stated, they already make funds through that.

To be clear, I am in favor of---or personal preference of---replacing it.

Rather than pay $50 so the TD can get $15 margin and I get merch I don't want,
I'd rather pay $15 and get no merch.

TD has just as much funding, with less work.

I have $35 in my pocket, rather than discs and tee-shirts collecting dust.

But my point is that, if the PDGA altered the rules to allow this, it wouldn't be some historic change to "TDs getting paid!".

Whether it would be a success---whether TDs would do it, or players would come in sufficient numbers---is unclear. But I want to try, and find out.

 

[_MTL_]

To be clear, I am in favor of---or personal preference of---replacing it.

Rather than pay $50 so the TD can get $15 margin and I get merch I don't want,
I'd rather pay $15 and get no merch.

TD has just as much funding, with less work.

I have $35 in my pocket, rather than discs and tee-shirts collecting dust.

But my point is that, if the PDGA altered the rules to allow this, it wouldn't be some historic change to "TDs getting paid!".

Whether it would be a success---whether TDs would do it, or players would come in sufficient numbers---is unclear. But I want to try, and find out.

I followed your logic completely.

 

[DavidSauls]

I followed your logic completely.

I wasn't sure. Acknowledging that TDs are getting paid one way (margin on merch), why would that preclude them being paid a different way (direct)?

Assuming TDs and players wish to try, of course.

Isn't it a bit of the same charade as the amateurs themselves? Call us amateurs, but pay us in merchandise. Call TDs volunteers, but pay them in merch margin.

 

[_MTL_]

I wasn't sure. Acknowledging that TDs are getting paid one way (margin on merch), why would that preclude them being paid a different way (direct)?

Assuming TDs and players wish to try, of course.

Isn't it a bit of the same charade as the amateurs themselves? Call us amateurs, but pay us in merchandise. Call TDs volunteers, but pay them in merch margin.

When people say "pay TD's" I interpret that to mean "$2 / head to the TD" or something like that when we all know they are making probably $2-5 / disc on am payouts.

The reason I'm against giving that additional money is the same reason when you go to the store and by a product, you also don't pay the employee for scanning the item and completing the transaction. Profit is made off the item. That's how sales work. Disc golf events shouldn't be anything different.

 

[JC17393]

TDs shouldn't have to vend to make ends meet at their events. That's like saying that your car mechanic should just charge you more for the new brake pads rather than charge an hourly labor rate for installing them. Or a plumber should only install fixtures he sells to the customer so he can make his money on the retail margin rather than be paid just for his labor. The TD is performing a service just in organizing the event. That labor has value. Sadly, many players don't seem to recognize that value (saying thank you is great, but it and $2 will buy you a cup of coffee).

I have to giggle a little bit at some of the estimates of how much time a TD puts in. Whatever you think a TD puts in in terms of hours, you can safely double it to get into the actual ballpark. It goes waaaaay beyond just the 10-12 hours at the course on tournament day even for a one-day, two-round C-tier. If the TD is vending for himself, that's just more hours of work put in (not to mention the up-front investment to carry his inventory). And even if he is pocketing every dime of the retail margin, on an hourly basis, he's probably earning well below minimum wage.

As for the notion that paying TDs would result in bad TDs running bad events just to make a buck...let the market rule. If players support the well run events, the bad ones will go away by attrition. I think the sport has grown to a point where we never have to tolerate poorly run events by unscrupulous TDs being a regular thing because they're the only game in town or no one else will do it. I would think that if the worst that can happen to a TD is they break even financially on an event, we'd get more good TDs sticking with it rather than burning out. Doing it for the love of the game is great and all, but even the love has a limit.

 

[DavidSauls]

@MTL

But you're talking about paying them in addition to the margin. I'm talking about paying them instead of the margin.

Why is that objectionable, to you or, more importantly, the PDGA?

 

[DavidSauls]

A lot of this may be residue of things that were good ideas 30 years ago.

But in many places we have enough players that we can offer multiple, competing formulas and each find an audience. We no longer need to help manufacturers get these new-fangled golf discs out to people. We don't have to rely on a handful of disc golf ambassadors, planting course and tournament seeds in new places.

The PDGA will always have to balance conformity and flexibility. I'd love to see more of the latter with tournament finances, particularly ground level events like C-tiers.

 

[ceisenhood]

Hi all:

I'm the publisher and founder of Ultiworld (and UW Disc Golf). I'm also the co-host of the Upshot podcast.

I know the conversation has moved beyond the original discussion, but I was pointed to this thread and just wanted to mention a couple of things.

By almost any measure, Tyler's op-ed has accomplished its goals. It's the most-read article on the website in the last month, people are engaging with and discussing it, and there are plenty of people who agree and disagree. This was not some drive-by, half-baked idea -- the author has thought about this and spent time crafting an opinion piece about it.

If you disagree, that's fine! But accosting the author (or the editor of the piece) for not including the arguments that you would make for preserving the status quo is not fair. Not everyone is going to agree with opinion columns. That's the point of them.

I'm not the day-to-day editor of the site, but I can assure you that we certainly welcome a wide range of ideas and want to be a source of both news and insightful commentary. If you are interested in submitting an op-ed that advocates for the current system (or any other topic), please get in touch: we would gladly work with you to publish it. You can reach us (and me directly) at discgolf at ultiworld dot com.

Cheers!

 

[_MTL_]

@MTL

But you're talking about paying them in addition to the margin. I'm talking about paying them instead of the margin.

Why is that objectionable, to you or, more importantly, the PDGA?

This a side conversation, and a relevant one

Are you proposing a trophy only no-amateur payout model?

If so, there are two responses.

If the entire entry is represented in a player pack, we are simply recreating the same thing in terms of events making money. A TD makes the same, in theory, if they have a 100% of entry fees paid out a 100% of entry represented in player packs. (Actually, you are likely to make more with a 100% payout due to people no-showing awards, people getting $20 of payout when they got $22 in vouchers and saying "we are good" and then the people who pay $5 to make their $22 voucher worth $27, but we are saying in theory).

The 100% player pack option is the best overall am model, I feel, but doesn't solve this issue you are talking about.

If you are referring to a $10 entry fee and players paying for nothing, then yeah a $2 / head for the TD model makes sense. However, I don't see many people paying $10 to show up and play for absolutely nothing.

Either way, the TD in option one makes more money, even if the entry fees were identical. This is why I'm 100% against money straight taken from an entry fee and put in the TD's pocket; they already are fairly being compensated based on profits from merch.

 

[DavidSauls]

I'm proposing low-entry ($10-$25), no players pack, no prize payouts, trophy-only; money to TD (club, etc.) for expenses, PDGA fees, profit, whatever. For my entry, I get a tournament.

You don't see many people paying $10 to show up and play for absolutely nothing. Maybe you're right. Let's try it. Maybe I'm in a minority, but a large enough minority to make it work. Earlier in this thread people cited events that filled under just this formula. Lots of other amateur sports manage to work this way: pay your entry, compete in an organized event, period. Maybe disc golf can't; maybe we're too addicted to "stuff". But could we at least try, and see?

 

[_MTL_]

I'm proposing low-entry ($10-$25), no players pack, no prize payouts, trophy-only; money to TD (club, etc.) for expenses, PDGA fees, profit, whatever. For my entry, I get a tournament.

You don't see many people paying $10 to show up and play for absolutely nothing. Maybe you're right. Let's try it. Maybe I'm in a minority, but a large enough minority to make it work. Earlier in this thread people cited events that filled under just this formula. Lots of other amateur sports manage to work this way: pay your entry, compete in an organized event, period. Maybe disc golf can't; maybe we're too addicted to "stuff". But could we at least try, and see?

It's worth a shot. I get where you are coming from and in this model, yes, a TD should take a portion of the entries.

However, if a TD is truly in it for the money, they won't use this model (if they are smart).

 

[krupicka]

Either way, the TD in option one makes more money, even if the entry fees were identical. This is why I'm 100% against money straight taken from an entry fee and put in the TD's pocket; they already are fairly being compensated based on profits from merch.

This assumes the TD is being compensated based on profits from merch. There are numerous events where I know that TDs are not getting anything from the merch margin. (The vendor is a separate entity.) We need to quit trying to cram events into the mold where TDs acquire their prizes at wholesale rates.