Great article about AM divisions.

[Future_Primitive]

Steve wasn't saying that X means no ratings. He was saying that the perception is that X = no ratings. And when it comes to the general PDGA membership, he's right.

When the PDGA changed the rules regarding forced throw and distance for OB, and declared that events that used it too much would not receive ratings for those rounds, they said when they announced the policy that such events would be designated as X. Obviously they meant a category of X-tier event, but people misinterpreted it to mean that all X events would be unrated. I've tried to correct that misperception when I hear it, but given how often I hear it, it seems to be a wide spread misperception.

Thanks JC, I was under the (incorrect) impression all X-tiers meant it was something non-standard and ratings would not count. Not something I spread myself as I wasn't 100% sure exactly what X meant but definitely something I have heard from time to time. Main reason I only play one X event and only because it was half day/half glow which appealed to me.

I would love to see a low cost entry option with no player pack and no payouts other than maybe a trophy for 1st place. Gladly pay the TD for putting on the event and PDGA for the round ratings. Being in the masters age group I have way to much plastic and other various merch so big entry / big player pack is more of a drawback to me.

But I also help run a lot tournaments as it takes a village so I appreciate the hard work that goes into it. Nothing wrong with $5 to $10 per head going to the TD/Club for hosting the event and bypassing all the plastic. Buy discs, stock discs, haul discs, players pick through discs before tourney (packs) and then after tourney (payouts), it adds a lot of time to the event. Get there early to set up, lines at reg as people go through box after box looking for the one, then payouts drag on trying to find X# of discs to match dollar amount won, then pack them all back up again.

Show me a $20 or less trophy only sanctioned tourney at a nice course and I am in. My $.02.

 

[_MTL_]

I would love to see a low cost entry option with no player pack and no payouts other than maybe a trophy for 1st place. Gladly pay the TD for putting on the event and PDGA for the round ratings. Being in the masters age group I have way to much plastic and other various merch so big entry / big player pack is more of a drawback to me.

There is nothing that says this can't be done now.

I've seen an event have a $3 entry fee. $2 to the PDGA and $1 from each player to help cover the sanctioning fee. These guys wanted their local event to have ratings, so they do it.

9 times of out 10 the reason something doesn't happen in the PDGA is because no one does it, not that it isn't possible / allowed under rule.

 

[DavidSauls]

There is nothing that says this can't be done now.

I've seen an event have a $3 entry fee. $2 to the PDGA and $1 from each player to help cover the sanctioning fee. These guys wanted their local event to have ratings, so they do it.

9 times of out 10 the reason something doesn't happen in the PDGA is because no one does it, not that it isn't possible / allowed under rule.

How does that "pay the TD for putting on the event"?

 

[_MTL_]

How does that "pay the TD for putting on the event"?

It doesn't. TD's shouldn't get paid.

But I was using a realistic example. If the entry is $4 in this scenario, TD gets $1 per head.

 

[DavidSauls]

It doesn't. TD's shouldn't get paid.

But I was using a realistic example. If the entry is $4 in this scenario, TD gets $1 per head.

Without wandering off about TDs getting paid---that was the post you were responding to.

Instead of TDs getting paid with the merch margin, we're talking about just paying them $10 or $15 or $20 for the tournament.

And by "paid" I mean to the club, the course, fixed event expenses, the TD's pocket, wherever.

 

[Cgkdisc]

I had a Tour Standards proposal about 10 years ago that the TD would get to keep the same fee as the PDGA "player fee" for that tier, i.e., $2 C, $3 B and $4 A tier, similar to what later got approved when the league program got underway where 50 cents per player each week goes to the PDGA and 50 cents to the league director. The TD could do what they wanted with their fee. If they contributed the amount back to the purse, they at least would get credit as an event sponsor. The pros on the committee tabled and ultimately killed it, perhaps because it might reduce payout?

 

[Steve West]

...TD's shouldn't get paid.

...

I'm just guessing here, but I think we may have licked our way to the Tootsie center of the discussion.

 

[dreadlock86]

If X is thought to mean "no ratings", and that's what players really care about, perhaps X should only mean "no ratings". Whatever else it currently means (I doubt more than one person knows without looking it up) should be communicated more directly and explicitly.

Even better, take away the X and the alphabet tiers and just list the attributes: No ratings vs. rated rounds, $5000 added cash vs. no payouts, etc.

People don't like to be talked at in codes.

Steve wasn't saying that X means no ratings. He was saying that the perception is that X = no ratings. And when it comes to the general PDGA membership, he's right.

i like the idea. make X-tier mean alternate format with no ratings and Z-tier mean alternate format with ratings.

 

[Cgkdisc]

The PDGA database has a separate field that indicates "do ratings or not". I don't think the IT team wants to combine that characteristic as new tier codes. I'm also not sure they would be interested to add a column in the Calendar page just for ratings Y/N but maybe it could be indicated another way. I'll see what could be done.

 

[JTacoma03]

Steve wasn't saying that X means no ratings. He was saying that the perception is that X = no ratings. And when it comes to the general PDGA membership, he's right.

When the PDGA changed the rules regarding forced throw and distance for OB, and declared that events that used it too much would not receive ratings for those rounds, they said when they announced the policy that such events would be designated as X. Obviously they meant a category of X-tier event, but people misinterpreted it to mean that all X events would be unrated. I've tried to correct that misperception when I hear it, but given how often I hear it, it seems to be a wide spread misperception.

The PDGA's (lack of) communication and clarity on new policies has been a recurring thorn in the side of organizers, promoters, TD's, etc.

I am really hoping the new board members break that mold to install some transparency and a "show your work" mentality for policy changes going forward.

Your example is great for illustrating the feeling that the board has seemed a bit "out of touch" lately with the boots on the ground.

 

[biscoe]

It doesn't. TD's shouldn't get paid.

hogwash. Of course they should.

 

[Steve West]

hogwash. Of course they should.

I'd be very interested in hearing the case for:

Why TD's shouldn't be paid, and

Why anyone thinks TDs can't get paid now (albeit by a roundabout means).​

 

[biscoe]

I'd be very interested in hearing the case for:

Why TD's shouldn't be paid,​

i would like to hear that one too...altruism will only get things so far.

and

Why anyone thinks TDs can't get paid now (albeit by a roundabout means).

they can (and some do) get paid now. i personally would prefer them to have the means to be upfront about it. if players feel they are receiving appropriate value for their entry fee/time td should be able to make whatever they so choose.

 

[Three Putt]

I'm just guessing here, but I think we may have licked our way to the Tootsie center of the discussion.

I'm totally stealing this line. :|

Basically if you want to get really driven go-getters who are going to push the boundaries of payouts, promotion, etc., they have to get paid.

With no pay to the TD, you get one or two guys like Nate Heinold who are willing to work within the constraints of our built-in "the TD has to be in it for the love of the game" bias and push those boundaries. Those events stand out as exceptional so far as payout and promotion goes. So props to Nate, but he is the exception.

If the idea is to have a whole tour of Ledgestone-like payout/promotion events, the TD's have to have a financial incentive to attract the types of people who know how to do that. Very few of them will do it for love, but a lot of them will do it for money.

To me, it's a very easy "no-brainer" way to push big payout/promotion events and I have no idea why the PDGA is not actively working to push the sport in that direction if Ledgestone payouts is what they want on the regular. The PDGA old guard is very attached to the "Disc golf tournaments put on by disc golfers for disc golfers" insular nature of our sport, though. The idea of an outside non-disc golfer coming in with energy and big event/promotion know-how and running disc golf events as a personal profit generator seems to be a big no-no.

 

[_MTL_]

I'd be very interested in hearing the case for:

Why TD's shouldn't be paid, and

Why anyone thinks TDs can't get paid now (albeit by a roundabout means).​

Second question: I never said they can't; I'm just saying they shouldn't.

So first question:

TDing is volunteering. There are already enough bad events and bad TD's. Encouraging payment to these isn't a good thing at all.

I refused to take a salary for AM worlds.

 

[Future_Primitive]

TDing is volunteering. There are already enough bad events and bad TD's. Encouraging payment to these isn't a good thing at all.

I refused to take a salary for AM worlds.

Or maybe the PDGA gets exactly what they paid for in these cases. If TDs were to be paid their fair share for running the events we would get better TDs. We could also hold the incompetent BoD of the PDGA more accountable to raise the bar on who can run a PDGA event and who can't.

Instead we get a few morons who think there is money to be made running disc golf events and rush into unprepared and unqualified because the PDGA not only allows this but encourages it. Then these few morons run terrible events and end up losing money because there is no money to be made running events. Idiots who think DG events will make them money are not the type of folks who should be running events.

 

[_MTL_]

There's definitely a good argument to be made about paying them. I get it completely.

 

[_MTL_]

Or maybe the PDGA gets exactly what they paid for in these cases. If TDs were to be paid their fair share for running the events we would get better TDs. We could also hold the incompetent BoD of the PDGA more accountable to raise the bar on who can run a PDGA event and who can't.

Instead we get a few morons who think there is money to be made running disc golf events and rush into unprepared and unqualified because the PDGA not only allows this but encourages it. Then these few morons run terrible events and end up losing money because there is no money to be made running events. Idiots who think DG events will make them money are not the type of folks who should be running events.

At least you aren't bitter or angry.

 

[DiscFifty]

TDing is volunteering. There are already enough bad events and bad TD's. Encouraging payment to these isn't a good thing at all.

Wow..that's crazy to think like that. I see TDs working from 7:00-4:00pm, a minimum of 9 hours the day of the event and then there's a few hours answering questions, setting up promotions, etc, on social media, etc. Let's just say a bare bones minimum of 12 hours of their time to run a typical 1 day, 2 round c-tier event. I would hope the TD makes a fair profit for their time. How much is fair, I don't know. Around here (DFW area) most C-tiers typically fill to 90 players with an average price of 50.00, so that's 4500.00 gross money coming in. (They typically have player packs. Ams get paid in merch vouchers for the top 3 or so in each division, rec is usually trophy only.) I'll let someone else take a stab at how much the TD is making from that.

I refused to take a salary for AM worlds.

That has nothing to do with being a good or bad TD.

 

[_MTL_]

That has nothing to do with being a good or bad TD.

Agreed 100%