[Innova] FD/Fairway Disc/Dark Rebel/Hawkeye

[discerdoo]

A rose by any other name would smell as sweet....

 

[Tinkles]

My Hawkeye has different tooling than the Star and Champion Dark Rebel.

Read someone saying it's smaller diameter which would make sense if Dave is saying slightly faster. Not sure how much a difference a mm in diameter changes flight characteristics.

 

[runningDoc]

"ISO Fairway Disc new tooling. the one 1 millimeter smaller version. PLEASE MEASURE EXACTLY! SERIOUS MEASURE'ERS ONLY"

 

[twistedraven]

What is the tooling? If it's the embossed lettering on the underside of the flight plate, my Hawkeye has the same lettering that says "Innova Champion Discs, Inc. Rancho Cucamonga CA. USA 91730 www.innovadiscs.com". It also has the same filed down patent number marking directly opposite of the lettering.

I have read that the tooling plate is a completely different plate separate of the ones used for the rim/wing and top, but one would think if the disc was actually a smaller diameter with same rim width, that they would have to use an entirely new tooling plate.

 

[ian.w]

The dark rebels don't have any of that. They just say made in USA.

 

[aphilso1]

I keep coming back to this thread out of morbid curiosity. What an absolute goat rodeo Innova has created out of what should have been a perfect situation for them.

 

[bnrstnkr]

The bottom plate mold piece is separate and interchangeable. That's how they get different tooling (ie rancho Cucamonga or made in USA or innovadiscs.com) and how they get the discs out of the mold without warping them while cooling.

So a different bottom piece won't tell you anything. But Dave d has no reason to lie this way, and would have good reason to just tell you they are halo fds

What I think they did is basically what DM is doing, making a copycat mold of the original but with very minor variations.

And a disc being 1mm smaller diameter with the same rim thickness would make a difference. Just not a very big one.

You can get varying heights in dome from the same mold, but you can't make a disc with a smaller diameter from the same mold. Some of the pdga specs are more telling than others

I'm going to go ahead and pat myself on the back for calling it.

Dave D doesn't give a ****, he just makes discs when he has ideas and works to improve them. If you watch him talk enough, you'll see he is incredibly consistent and honest in answering questions. The man has a passion for creating the best possible disc golf equipment and there's not much else to it.

Maybe the DM mold wars is petty. I think they see there is demand for the discs and there's no reason to leave them OOP, just because Discmania ended their contract

 

[PMantle]

You can get varying heights in dome from the same mold,

How do they do this?

 

[Gandalf]

So I am going to go back to bagging and throwing one of my stash of FDs. It sounds like I am safe in believing that if I lose all 5 I will be able to replace them with a Dank Rebel or a Hawkeye.

Thanks all! That's all I needed to know.

 

[twistedraven]

The 1mm difference in diameter has intrigued me quite a bit. From a visual inspection stacking the two side by side on end, I can't tell a difference. I don't have any precision tools to measure exactly their diameter, but what I did do to help exaggerate any difference in diameter is measure the circumference of each disc using floss. I made extra careful to mark my starting/end point and keep the floss wrapped as tightly around as I could. Here are my measurements:


26.25 inches (666.75mm) for the Halo Hawkeye
26.375 inches (669.925mm) for the original Champion FD I have


Let's do some math:

PDGA lists the diameter of the Hawkeye at 21.1cm (211mm)
PDGa lists the diameter of the original FD at 21.2cm. (212mm)


Formula for circumference is C = 2 pi r

Radius of the original FD is 106mm
Radius of the new halo Hawkeye is 105.5mm


To get the supposed circumference of the original FD using PDGA's listed diameter, we'll do 2*pi*106 which equals 666mm.
To get the supposed circumference of the new Hawkeye using PDGA's listed diameter, we'll do 2*pi*105.5 which equals 662.9mm.


So according to PDGA's numbers, the original FD should have a circumference around 3mm larger than the Hawkeye, which closely matches what I got.



Could this be molding variation? The two are differing plastics as well, and I've no doubt they cool and shrink to slightly differing circumferences. I do not know, as I only have 1 Hawkeye and 1original FD. It would be interesting to see if other people can measure. Super slight movements in the floss could have resulted in 1/8" of a measuring difference as well.

This difference is so minute that I doubt it has any effect on flight. I think Dave is an honest guy, but he's definitely wrong about the disc being slightly faster, because it measures to have the same exact rim width as the original FD. It doesn't have a sleeker, more aerodynamic profile either. Then there's the fact that the markings on the new Hawkeye's underside are literally the exact same as the original FD's underside. If what they say is true about it being slightly smaller diameter is true, but the rim is the exact same width, then why is the bottom plate seemingly the exact same as the original FD?

 

[Moonshine]

The bottom plate mold piece is separate and interchangeable. That's how they get different tooling (ie rancho Cucamonga or made in USA or innovadiscs.com) and how they get the discs out of the mold without warping them while cooling.

So a different bottom piece won't tell you anything. But Dave d has no reason to lie this way, and would have good reason to just tell you they are halo fds

What I think they did is basically what DM is doing, making a copycat mold of the original but with very minor variations.

And a disc being 1mm smaller diameter with the same rim thickness would make a difference. Just not a very big one.

You can get varying heights in dome from the same mold, but you can't make a disc with a smaller diameter from the same mold. Some of the pdga specs are more telling than others

I'm going to go ahead and pat myself on the back for calling it.

Dave D doesn't give a ****, he just makes discs when he has ideas and works to improve them. If you watch him talk enough, you'll see he is incredibly consistent and honest in answering questions. The man has a passion for creating the best possible disc golf equipment and there's not much else to it.

Maybe the DM mold wars is petty. I think they see there is demand for the discs and there's no reason to leave them OOP, just because Discmania ended their contract

You can absolutely get discs of different diameters with the same mold. All you must do is use a different plastic. For example, Z Comets are quite literally wider than Comets produced in Tournament Plastic. If the Hawkeye was submitted for approval in a different plastic than the Dark Rebel, it's possible the measurements could be slightly different.

 

[Moonshine]

The 1mm difference in diameter has intrigued me quite a bit. From a visual inspection stacking the two side by side on end, I can't tell a difference. I don't have any precision tools to measure exactly their diameter, but what I did do to help exaggerate any difference in diameter is measure the circumference of each disc using floss. I made extra careful to mark my starting/end point and keep the floss wrapped as tightly around as I could. Here are my measurements:


26.25 inches (666.75mm) for the Halo Hawkeye
26.375 inches (669.925mm) for the original Champion FD I have


Let's do some math:

PDGA lists the diameter of the Hawkeye at 21.1cm (211mm)
PDGa lists the diameter of the original FD at 21.2cm. (212mm)


Formula for circumference is C = 2 pi r

Radius of the original FD is 106mm
Radius of the new halo Hawkeye is 105.5mm


To get the supposed circumference of the original FD using PDGA's listed diameter, we'll do 2*pi*106 which equals 666mm.
To get the supposed circumference of the new Hawkeye using PDGA's listed diameter, we'll do 2*pi*105.5 which equals 662.9mm.


So according to PDGA's numbers, the original FD should have a circumference around 3mm larger than the Hawkeye, which closely matches what I got.



Could this be molding variation? I do not know, as I only have 1 Hawkeye and 1original FD. It would be interesting to see if other people can measure. Super slight movements in the floss could have resulted in 1/8" of a measuring difference as well.

This difference is so minute that I doubt it has any effect on flight. I think Dave is an honest guy, but he's definitely wrong about the disc being slightly faster, because it measures to have the same exact rim width as the original FD. It doesn't have a sleeker, more aerodynamic profile either. Then there's the fact that the markings on the new Hawkeye's underside are literally the exact same as the original FD's underside. If what they say is true about it being slightly smaller diameter is true, but the rim is the exact same width, then why is the bottom plate seemingly the exact same as the original FD?

Champion type plastics don't shrink as much as others. I think it's as simple as the Halo plastic shrinks more and has a slightly smaller diameter as a result.

 

[twistedraven]

Champion type plastics don't shrink as much as others. I think it's as simple as the Halo plastic shrinks more and has a slightly smaller diameter as a result.

Yeah I thought about that as well. It's such a small difference that it could very well be the case. Same molds have molded up into more extreme differences than this.

 

[ian.w]

You guys are putting waaaaay too much importance on what the PDGA measurements are listed at. They are notoriously inaccurate. Trying to determine if two molds are the same based on their posted measurements is such a waste of time. It has been proven that you can have two discs in the same plastic same mold and still get different measurements. Who cares.

 

[twistedraven]

I'm not myself, I already know full well how notoriously off they can be (see their 2.2cm Destroyer rim width as an example). I'm more annoyed at the ones who keep citing the PDGA specs and saying that this Hawkeye is an entirely different mold. But yeah who cares, I've done enough of a deep dive into the Hawkeye to know that in the future if I ever want an FD in Halo plastic I'll just grab a Hawkeye.

 

[ian.w]

I'm not myself, I already know full well how notoriously off they can be (see their 2.2cm Destroyer rim width as an example). I'm more annoyed at the ones who keep citing the PDGA specs and saying that this Hawkeye is an entirely different mold. But yeah who cares, I've done enough of a deep dive into the Hawkeye to know that in the future if I ever want an FD in Halo plastic I'll just grab a Hawkeye.

Yeah. I agree that all signs point to it being a halo FD. Regardless of what innova NOW says. Now they make halo FDs, halo TLs, and halo Teebirds. Only thing left is a halo JLS.

 

[feelinlucky]

Finally got to throw my Hawkeye on some shots at the course along side a older run Sline FD and a Star Dark Rebel FD. So far the Hawkeye has less glide then the FDs and more high speed stability as advertised and i feel it has a smaller diameter then the FD but they are so close its hard to tell.

 

[ArtemisClydFr0g]

Finally got to throw my Hawkeye on some shots at the course along side a older run Sline FD and a Star Dark Rebel FD. So far the Hawkeye has less glide then the FDs and more high speed stability as advertised and i feel it has a smaller diameter then the FD but they are so close its hard to tell.

Enough of this talk about how it flies...let's get back to the calipers.

it's a halo FD

 

[bnrstnkr]

Based on the pdga specs I was willing to believe it's the same mold. Now you have the man himself speaking out and saying it's a different disc.

We now need a solid reason that dunipace would lie about that when the demand for a halo FD would be plenty to sell them out.

The one thing I can think of is the manufacturer name change. Why did they switch the dm originals to have the manufacturer listed as "innova pro shop" ?

There could be a legal/pdga approval reason they had to create a separate manufacturer for those discs. And if they wanted to release/approve the FD under "innova champion discs" they had to claim it was a different mold altogether.

But I wouldn't put it on DaveD to make an open faced lie. I work hard to maintain my naiveté

 

[dehaas]

Total random guess but I'd expect any change in manufacturer approval was to avoid any residual legal beef.

Meaning that stuff takes time, so if there was any bad blood after the breakup they might have been advised to have them approved under the factory store…a different entity than the one in any type of prior business relationship with DM.