Am Worlds in Emporia will be a trophy-only tournament

[JC17393]

It's actually not. To be gambling there has to be a certain level of chance involved. In disc golf (like other sports) you have control over the outcome through your performance.

Guess it depends on your point of view, but there's always a level of chance even in disc golf and other sports. If there wasn't an element of chance involved, then if you play the absolute best round of your life, you would win. But even that is no guarantee of victory, since regardless of what you do, your opponent can still play better than you.

The dictionary definition of gamble is "1. a) to play a game for money or property, b) to bet on an uncertain outcome or 2. to stake something on a contingency : take a chance". Most tournaments are structured as an organized bet. Like when you play poker, the only money on the table is from the other players, in disc golf, the bulk of the "purse" is derived from entry fees. You're buying in for a chance to win a portion of the collected entries. Technically, some states might call what we do illegal but we're far enough under the radar to get away with it.

 

[bradharris]

Guess it depends on your point of view, but there's always a level of chance even in disc golf and other sports. If there wasn't an element of chance involved, then if you play the absolute best round of your life, you would win. But even that is no guarantee of victory, since regardless of what you do, your opponent can still play better than you.

The dictionary definition of gamble is "1. a) to play a game for money or property, b) to bet on an uncertain outcome or 2. to stake something on a contingency : take a chance". Most tournaments are structured as an organized bet. Like when you play poker, the only money on the table is from the other players, in disc golf, the bulk of the "purse" is derived from entry fees. You're buying in for a chance to win a portion of the collected entries. Technically, some states might call what we do illegal but we're far enough under the radar to get away with it.

Okay, so the dictionary uses a wider definition than I do. I think I'm considering it more in the legal sense. For it to really be considered illegal, the outcome really has to be outside the participants control. A poker hand is dumb luck. The skill is in knowing how to bet odds, but the actual cards are completely random. At least in disc golf, you're completely in control of where the disc flies.

 

[JC17393]

Okay, so the dictionary uses a wider definition than I do. I think I'm considering it more in the legal sense. For it to really be considered illegal, the outcome really has to be outside the participants control. A poker hand is dumb luck. The skill is in knowing how to bet odds, but the actual cards are completely random. At least in disc golf, you're completely in control of where the disc flies.

You're in control of how your disc flies, but you can't control how my disc flies. So there are elements out of participants control. In other sports, there's an offense and a defense and direct conflict. I can stop you from scoring a goal or a run, and you can stop me. You can't stop me from birdying 17 of 18 holes, McBeth-style. Of course, as we've seen, even that isn't always enough to win the tournament.

In the grand scheme of legality/illegality, we're small potatoes so likely in no more danger of being shut down as a friendly poker game in someone's basement. But we do flirt with that line depending on local laws.

 

[bradharris]

You're in control of how your disc flies, but you can't control how my disc flies. So there are elements out of participants control. In other sports, there's an offense and a defense and direct conflict. I can stop you from scoring a goal or a run, and you can stop me. You can't stop me from birdying 17 of 18 holes, McBeth-style. Of course, as we've seen, even that isn't always enough to win the tournament.

In the grand scheme of legality/illegality, we're small potatoes so likely in no more danger of being shut down as a friendly poker game in someone's basement. But we do flirt with that line depending on local laws.

Here's the definition of Gambling from the NH state code:

(d) "Gambling '' means to risk something of value upon a future contingent event not under one's control or influence, upon an agreement or understanding that something of value will be received in the event of a certain outcome.

The word influence gives some breathing room. You don't have to be in complete control of all aspects of the competition. You just have to be able to influence the outcome through your play.

 

[DavidSauls]

Okay, so the dictionary uses a wider definition than I do. I think I'm considering it more in the legal sense. For it to really be considered illegal, the outcome really has to be outside the participants control. A poker hand is dumb luck. The skill is in knowing how to bet odds, but the actual cards are completely random. At least in disc golf, you're completely in control of where the disc flies.

As I understand it, what we do is considered illegal gambling in some states, but not illegal in others, including mine. But the context is whether lower divisions should be able to pool their entries and then award them to top finishers, which is gambling (legal or illegal) by most definitions.

An earlier poster said, "If you want to gamble on disc golf, play Open." When people say that Ams shouldn't win anything, especially when they're effectively just winning each other's entries, they're pretty much saying that Ams shouldn't be able to gamble, or that their gambling shouldn't be organized.

 

[bradharris]

As I understand it, what we do is considered illegal gambling in some states, but not illegal in others, including mine. But the context is whether lower divisions should be able to pool their entries and then award them to top finishers, which is gambling (legal or illegal) by most definitions.

It does vary state-to-state. In a quick scan, you can be fined $10 in AR for betting on games of skill. However in KS, bets on games of skill are allowed, so the legality argument, in terms of Am Worlds (which this thread was discussing to begin with) is irrelevant.

An earlier poster said, "If you want to gamble on disc golf, play Open." When people say that Ams shouldn't win anything, especially when they're effectively just winning each other's entries, they're pretty much saying that Ams shouldn't be able to gamble, or that their gambling shouldn't be organized.

I made a similar comment, I said if you want to win money on disc golf, play open. FWIW, I think the whole model of using entry fees to fund payouts is flawed, in any division. Pro payouts should be funded by sponsor money. Yes, this would completely ruin the prospects of anyone being able to earn a living on disc golf. But to me, that's a failure of the PDGA to adequetly market and present it's product in a way that is enticing to sponsors.

 

[grodney]

For your education, Bruce Brakel has probably done the most comprehensive research and reporting on the legality (or illegality) of disc golf competitions in the U.S.:
http://www.pdga.com/discussion/archive/index.php/t-31415.html

tl;dr = As DavidSauls said above, standard PDGA tournaments are certainly illegal in some states, and probably grey in the rest. Bowling has received a special exemption in the state of Florida for similarly structured tournaments.

 

[grodney]

That Brakel link should be stickied and prerubed whenever a gambling discussion comes up, unless you're just talking about gambling in a philosophical sense and not gambling in a legal sense.

 

[DavidSauls]

I wasn't going to drag Brakel into this, but he's the source I was thinking of.

In South Carolina, you can gamble on games of skill, but not games of chance. There was huge court case over which one poker is.

 

[DavidSauls]

The Am-merch-payout system supports our tournament structure.

I've railed against it, but it does have some benefits. The TD or club makes a certain gross profit on the wholesale/retail differential. They can use this to cover fixed expenses, go towards the club or course improvements, or add to the pro purse---however, they choose. In the meantime, the Ams, as a group, play for free: they get virtually their entire entry back, at retail prices.

I've often said I wish the Am divisions had a low entry fee, $20 or $25, no players pack, no prizes other than trophies. The TD or club could keep the entry, and I'd have received value in playing in an organized tournament. I still wish it work this way.

But I have to admit, the current system makes about as much "profit" as my system would, and the players seem to like it more.

*

Anyway, that's all about run-of-the-mill tournaments. The more I think about Worlds have little or no payouts, the more I like it. I've gone to 2 AmWorlds in which I did not cash, but the experience was fabulous and easily worth the entry fee.

 

[wake911]

That was an interesting read. I went and looked up Indiana, and there is an exception for games of skill. So Pro Worlds is safe this year guys!!

"Gambling " means risking money or other property for gain, contingent in whole or in part upon lot, chance, or the operation of a gambling device; but it does not include participating in:
(1) bona fide contests of skill, speed, strength, or endurance in which awards are made only to entrants or the owners of entries;

 

[New013]

Is there a recommended structure for how many people get paid out depending on the amount of people in that division?

To me it just seems like to many people get paid out. I'd suggest something like 15 % of the field.

 

[Aim For The Chains]

Is there a recommended structure for how many people get paid out depending on the amount of people in that division?

To me it just seems like to many people get paid out. I'd suggest something like 15 % of the field.

I noticed that too.. or if anything maybe their entry fee back but then the top 5 get the big money? it splits down A LOT for such a little total pot':clap:

 

[grodney]

In South Carolina, you can gamble on games of skill, but not games of chance. There was huge court case over which one poker is.

Yeah, that's always a fun debate.

But as pointed out in Brakel's analysis, beyond the luck vs skill, there is the question whether using pooled entry fees as prizes constitutes "gambling", even if the contest is 100% skill.

 

[JC17393]

Is there a recommended structure for how many people get paid out depending on the amount of people in that division?

http://www.pdga.com/documents/tour-pay-tables

 

[SteezeOG]

Be careful with that request, the same one got me called every single name in the book, thrown into picking a side and getting blasted again for that before I even got a chance to give my actual opinion on the actual subject at hand. :wall:

Please. I said you were acting like a whiny brat. I stand by that but said sorry for offending you. I'm used to people having thicker skin on the internet I guess. I was reprimanded no doubt because you complained but there is no need for further exaggeration. I don't think the PDGA does enough to define the two classes of player but that's not on one TD and one tournament. Become a member or vote in elections like myself and try to change things that way. I take offense when someone not even planning on attending the tournament wants to call these guys scammers. No one forced you to take a side you were happy to give your opinion. If you take me calling you a minor leaguer as offensive then sorry. It wasn't meant to be insulting just to point out your view of your own game makes you feel entitled to payouts when the term amateur directly goes against that. We can move along now our separate ways. :thmbup:

 

[DavidSauls]

Yeah, that's always a fun debate.

But as pointed out in Brakel's analysis, beyond the luck vs skill, there is the question whether using pooled entry fees as prizes constitutes "gambling", even if the contest is 100% skill.

That's all in legal definitions of gambling---or definitions of illegal gambling. By common usage of the word, what we're doing is gambling, or very close to it.

 

[DavidSauls]

Is there a recommended structure for how many people get paid out depending on the amount of people in that division?

To me it just seems like to many people get paid out. I'd suggest something like 15 % of the field.

50%.

If you did 15%, you'd have one or two side effects---

Less entries, because many people feel they might reach the top half of a division on a good weekend, but have little chance of reaching the very top;

and/or

Huge prizes for those top 15%, which would really encourage sandbagging and greatly inflate the issue of an Am winning more than an Open player, which bothers some people.

 

[Three Putt]

Is there a recommended structure for how many people get paid out depending on the amount of people in that division?

To me it just seems like to many people get paid out. I'd suggest something like 15 % of the field.

50%.

If you did 15%, you'd have one or two side effects---

Less entries, because many people feel they might reach the top half of a division on a good weekend, but have little chance of reaching the very top;

and/or

Huge prizes for those top 15%, which would really encourage sandbagging and greatly inflate the issue of an Am winning more than an Open player, which bothers some people.

The number of people being paid out is a result of who we are. The PDGA started as Pro-only and didn't have Am's for the first 10 or so years. Since it was a Pro org, they used a deep payout. You use a deep payout to keep a lot of people on tour; if you only pay top three, the rest of your tour goes broke and goes home.

When the Am's were added, disc golf events were run by a bunch of old pro disc golfers that had a lot more training at throwing Frisbees than they had in running recreational events. They really had no idea what to do other than what they had been doing, so the Am payout essentially was the pro payout only in merch instead of cash. So you have Am's being paid out in a style that you use to support a lot of players to keep them on tour, which makes no sense. But there it is. Now it's so ingrained that even talking about changing it brings a howl of dissent even though it doesn't now and never did make a lick of sense.

 

[Cgkdisc]

The PDGA International pro pay tables are for 25%, 33% and 40% payouts versus 40-45-50 for the U.S. Of course, they mostly have pro divisions. The interesting thing to ponder is would they get the same explosion in "amateur" tournament play that we've had in the U.S. if they adopted our high payout model in addition to actually offering amateur divisions (which they haven't really done)?