Ask John Houck about Course Design & Development

[REDARMY]

John - If this has already been covered, I'm sorry...I haven't ready the entire thread.

We're in the midst of designing a course and I suggested a mando on a hole to 'take away' the easy hyzer route for right handed players and 'force' players to throw through six or seven scatted trees. The only other hazard is when players over throw the hole, they might end up in a lake. The lake is 75' behind the basket and the hole plays down hill 302'.

The questions and debate is some players think a mando should only be used for safety reasons and never to add difficulty to a hole. Your thoughts?

personally, i can see both sides of that argument, but i have to go with the 'only for safety' side of it.

if it were my course, i'd put it in as it is, give it a few weeks to let people come through, then gather opinions from those who have played about wether the mando should should be put it or not before you started printing up scorecards and signage.

 

[johnrhouck]

John - If this has already been covered, I'm sorry...I haven't ready the entire thread.

We're in the midst of designing a course and I suggested a mando on a hole to 'take away' the easy hyzer route for right handed players and 'force' players to throw through six or seven scatted trees. The only other hazard is when players over throw the hole, they might end up in a lake. The lake is 75' behind the basket and the hole plays down hill 302'.

The questions and debate is some players think a mando should only be used for safety reasons and never to add difficulty to a hole. Your thoughts?

That's a really good question, Sadjo. I'm not exactly sure how to improve your hole, since I'm not really sure what it looks like -- maybe you can send a diagram -- but I can give you some general thoughts to chew on.

Any time a hole has an easy hyzer route (or an easy straight route, or an easy turnover route), it's probably a candidate for a redesign. There's nothing wrong with having a challenging hyzer route; one of my first questions would be why the water is so far away. Throwing through several "scattered trees" sounda a bit random -- is there a way to move the tee so that those trees offer legitmate routes? Can you toughen up the hyzer so that those routes become worth considering -- maybe plant a tree by the tee so that the hyzer route involves some risk or requires more precision?

The conventional wisdom among course designers is that mandos should always be a last resort, and that they're better used to ensure safety than as a design "crutch."

As Solomon points out, mandos and OB both make the course harder. But there are key differences. The biggest one is that a mandatory takes away a players' ability to make choices. In a sense, it reduces a player's freedom, and players don't generally like that. If you throw OB, you have only yourself to blame. (Of course that won't stop some players from blamng the designer, or their disc, etc.)

For the record, I think artificial OB should be a next-to-last resort. I'd rather put more effort into careful design than slap some OB on a hole.

Hope that helps.

Thanks,
John

 

[johnrhouck]

John, have you had a chance to develop these ideas further? I'd love to see top pros sweating over a 10-footer, instead of taking 30-footers as gimmes. This would also make drive placement much more important, allow for tougher short holes, keep older courses challenging, and let designers put more good holes on a smaller piece of land. Removing all the chains from the targets might do it.

I have, Rip, but I'm still working on it. I'm with you on making drive placement more important, and I'm with you on trying to eliminate gimmes. But the solution I'm working on is pretty complicated and will require more time and experimentation (and probably some failed attempts) before I'll be ready to test it in the real world.

As for removing the chains, I've frequently done that as a practice aid. I found that putting without chains wasn't really that much harder than putting with chains, unless you're putting into the wind. That's when I found myself wishing I had those chains.

What I like about putting without chains is that it requires the right pace as well as the right line, just as in ball golf. But I think there would be a lot of resistance from players at this point in our history. Players love the sound and the symbolism of chains.

Nice to know that a guy named Rip cares so much about the short game. I'll let you know when I have something for show and tell.

Thanks,
John

 

[Gregor]

John, are you involved in or know anything about the proposed course in east Austin that is supposed to "replace" Peace park? I don't care to get into anything controversial, just wondering if and when we might get another new course in the area.

Thanks

 

[Rip Van]

What I like about putting without chains is that it requires the right pace as well as the right line, just as in ball golf. But I think there would be a lot of resistance from players at this point in our history. Players love the sound and the symbolism of chains.

Totally agree about that. If I'd have posted anywhere but the "Ask John" thread, I'd have probably had my head ripped off for suggesting going chainless. I'm excited that a guy with some serious design cred is thinking about making the putting game more interesting.

Nice to know that a guy named Rip cares so much about the short game.

Well, it's "Rip Van" as in "Winkle" and refers mostly to having taken a long time off from the game (though I'm throwing way farther than before, thanks to the new disc tech). Pretty amazing waking up and seeing how things have changed.

Thanks for the response, John.

 

[Sadjo]

Any time a hole has an easy hyzer route (or an easy straight route, or an easy turnover route), it's probably a candidate for a redesign. There's nothing wrong with having a challenging hyzer route; one of my first questions would be why the water is so far away. Throwing through several "scattered trees" sounda a bit random -- is there a way to move the tee so that those trees offer legitmate routes? Can you toughen up the hyzer so that those routes become worth considering -- maybe plant a tree by the tee so that the hyzer route involves some risk or requires more precision?



Thanks,
John

This is a course on private land. The owner (who also is the one mowing the course) gave us some guidelines to follow with laying out a design. The first was we couldn't remove any trees. Second was keeping all baskets a minimum of 15 feet from any of the trees so his 15' wide mowing deck could pass between baskets and trees.

For you question about the water...the basket is so far from the water because the ground gets 'mushy' and we wanted to avoid any future issues if the water level increases (it's an 80 acre man-made lake) and we felt the basket could end up shifting too much if in softer ground.

What we did to remedy the situation is we moved the tee several feet left of the original tee area which now forces anyone who goes for the hyzer route to really get their shot out quicker.

This course's biggest challenges come in the form of major elevation changes. The course is built on an old apple orchard in the foothills of the Smokey Mountains where most of the old growth apple tree were cut down and we were told to avoid the newer apple trees to not cause any damage to the fruit, the trees or the people that go to the orchard to pick their own fruit. Safety first.

Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[johnrhouck]

Any time a hole has an easy hyzer route (or an easy straight route, or an easy turnover route), it's probably a candidate for a redesign...

I think I should probably clarify what I meant here. If your hole is so easy that players of a particular skill level are going to birdie it more often than 2 out of 3 times, then you need to look at changing it -- it's too easy.

But 302' downwhill, with some trees, and with at least a threat of water, doesn't sound like it's too easy. There are lots of holes out there that look too easy and feel too easy, but you keep kicking yourself because you didn't birdie them... again.

Hope that makes sense.

 

[Sadjo]

I'd love to see top pros sweating over a 10-footer, instead of taking 30-footers as gimmes. This would also make drive placement much more important, allow for tougher short holes, keep older courses challenging, and let designers put more good holes on a smaller piece of land. Removing all the chains from the targets might do it.

I've always liked courses that place baskets within a group of trees or some other obstacle that requires not only trying to land their drive or approach shot within 30 feet but also on the 'right' side of the hole due to trees or other obstacles.

Theres a few courses in my area that there is a 30' cleared area by most baskets. Makes it too easy. I like being forced better shot placement due to a tree, rocks, or other objects.

 

[johnrhouck]

Totally agree about that. If I'd have posted anywhere but the "Ask John" thread, I'd have probably had my head ripped off for suggesting going chainless. I'm excited that a guy with some serious design cred is thinking about making the putting game more interesting.

I really think that we have a lot of room for improvement there. But there's no easy solution. I think it's doable.

Well, it's "Rip Van" as in "Winkle" and refers mostly to having taken a long time off from the game (though I'm throwing way farther than before, thanks to the new disc tech). Pretty amazing waking up and seeing how things have changed.

I suspected that might be the case. But "Van" is a good name for someone who likes driving, too.

Thanks for the response, John.

Yes, sir. Welcome back.

 

[johnrhouck]

John, are you involved in or know anything about the proposed course in east Austin that is supposed to "replace" Peace park? I don't care to get into anything controversial, just wondering if and when we might get another new course in the area.

Thanks

Hi, Gregor. I don't know a whole lot about the new park, but I do know that, as of a few weeks ago, there had been no neighborhood meetings about it, and there were no permits to begin construction. That said, I don't know of any major obstacles, and I think there's every reason to believe that we'll see it in the ground, maybe even in 2010.

I'm not ready to talk about "replacing" Pease. I think there's still room for optimism that there will still be a course at Pease when it's all said and done. The disc golf community really made a good showing at the public meeting, and the parks department was clearly receptive to some of the arguments we made. That discussion is far from over.

Thanks,
John

 

[johnrhouck]

This is a course on private land. The owner (who also is the one mowing the course) gave us some guidelines to follow with laying out a design. The first was we couldn't remove any trees. Second was keeping all baskets a minimum of 15 feet from any of the trees so his 15' wide mowing deck could pass between baskets and trees.

Every property comes with rules, and those sound pretty fair. (And that's a big deck he's using...)

For you question about the water...the basket is so far from the water because the ground gets 'mushy' and we wanted to avoid any future issues if the water level increases (it's an 80 acre man-made lake) and we felt the basket could end up shifting too much if in softer ground.

Good answer.

What we did to remedy the situation is we moved the tee several feet left of the original tee area which now forces anyone who goes for the hyzer route to really get their shot out quicker.

That sounds like it could be a good solution. There are two things that I always hope for on hole like the one you're describing. First, whenever you have more than one route on a hole, it's great if players have to reconsider their choice every time. That is to say that someone who likes the hyzer route won't automatically just take that same route every time. It's easy to design a hole like that if the routes are flukey or lucky; it's hard to do if the routes are fair but challenging. Often it just can't be done.

Second, every hole has a role to play on the course. If you have a hole that heavily favors righties, there needs to be a place on the course that evens things out for lefties. The concept of balance is fairly complex, but treating everyone equally is a good place to start.

This course's biggest challenges come in the form of major elevation changes. The course is built on an old apple orchard in the foothills of the Smokey Mountains where most of the old growth apple tree were cut down and we were told to avoid the newer apple trees to not cause any damage to the fruit, the trees or the people that go to the orchard to pick their own fruit. Safety first.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Sounds like a nice place, and it's great that the owner is making disc golf available. Definitely don't harm those apples. Good luck with it.

Thanks,
John

 

[chrishysell]

Hey John, how have you been? Miss me?

 

[Sadjo]

That sounds like it could be a good solution. There are two things that I always hope for on hole like the one you're describing. First, whenever you have more than one route on a hole, it's great if players have to reconsider their choice every time. That is to say that someone who likes the hyzer route won't automatically just take that same route every time. It's easy to design a hole like that if the routes are flukey or lucky; it's hard to do if the routes are fair but challenging. Often it just can't be done.

After playing the other day, I saw players go righty hyzer, lefty hyzer and some went through the trees right at the hole. I think we've done well with that hole. Thanks for your input.

Second, every hole has a role to play on the course. If you have a hole that heavily favors righties, there needs to be a place on the course that evens things out for lefties. The concept of balance is fairly complex, but treating everyone equally is a good place to start.

When doing the design, that was one of our goals. We've ended up with 4 each for righties and lefties. The other holes allow routes for both.

Sounds like a nice place, and it's great that the owner is making disc golf available. Definitely don't harm those apples. Good luck with it.

It's a beautiful place. It's 138 acres working farm. Minus the U-Pick orchards and the Black Angus Beef pasture, there's about 80 or so acres the course covers. Played yesterday and was able to pick fresh & ripe nectarines and peaches. You just need to make sure you're paying for the fruit.

 

[Staple Gun]

Hi John. Just read through this thread and gained some awesome insight on how courses are designed. Thank you so much for taking the time to share everything with us!

I enjoy having a tough front nine and an easier back nine so even if I start off bad I still stay focused because I know I can come back and shoot a good score on the back to finish off ok, or if I survive the front then I'm very excited about my round because i know I can go really low. I realize above all you have to use the land you're given, but do you intentionally place easier/tougher holes in certain parts of the round to increase the enjoyment of the round?

 

[grodney]

Hi John. Over on the Iowa board, Chuck is discussing some of the Worlds holes with some of the players. He made the comment: "it was my observation during practice that younger players refuse to throw rollers even when that might be the best option".

Please note that with that statement, Chuck is NOT stating whether the hole is good or bad.

That is the question I'm putting to you: Can a hole be good if roller is the best option?

I'm not talking about best option for a few roller gods. I'm talking about a hole where for *most* players, a roller would be the best shot, whether they're very good at them or not.




ps - You have unanswered questions from very early in this thread!! Only 7-8 more months and you can answer them in person, though we always find other more important stuff to talk about.

 

[Sadjo]

John...we once talked about using the scenery of what surrounds a course or a part of a course. Is there a time to design a hole that takes advantage of great views when maybe another hole design might be more challenging but loses the beauty the course has to offer?

 

[johnrhouck]

Hey John, how have you been? Miss me?

Well, hello, Chris Hysell. Nice to hear from you.

I've been good, but it seems I'm unable to find the words to accurately express how much I miss you. Please accept my apology.

I've tried to follow your career, but when I Google the Russian Wrestling Federation I can't find you. Maybe they changed the name to RWE?

Anyway, I miss our old Fantasy Football rivalry and getting to shake your hand on the course. Maybe USDGC this year?

Talk to you soon,
John

 

[johnrhouck]

Hi John. Just read through this thread and gained some awesome insight on how courses are designed. Thank you so much for taking the time to share everything with us!

I enjoy having a tough front nine and an easier back nine so even if I start off bad I still stay focused because I know I can come back and shoot a good score on the back to finish off ok, or if I survive the front then I'm very excited about my round because i know I can go really low. I realize above all you have to use the land you're given, but do you intentionally place easier/tougher holes in certain parts of the round to increase the enjoyment of the round?

Staple Gun, I love that question. I'm going to mull it for over a little while.

I will say this: if I know that a course is going to be used overwhelmingly by people who have never played disc golf before (at leat in the beginning), I'm extra careful with Hole #1, and I'm almost as careful with the next few holes.

I'll get back to you with more ideas. Thanks for the thought-provoking question.

John

 

[johnrhouck]

Hi John. Over on the Iowa board, Chuck is discussing some of the Worlds holes with some of the players. He made the comment: "it was my observation during practice that younger players refuse to throw rollers even when that might be the best option".

Please note that with that statement, Chuck is NOT stating whether the hole is good or bad.

That is the question I'm putting to you: Can a hole be good if roller is the best option?

I'm not talking about best option for a few roller gods. I'm talking about a hole where for *most* players, a roller would be the best shot, whether they're very good at them or not.




ps - You have unanswered questions from very early in this thread!! Only 7-8 more months and you can answer them in person, though we always find other more important stuff to talk about.

What up, G? Thanks for the reminder -- I'm still hoping to get caught up on those old questions, because there are some good ones.

As for roller holes, I think a hole can absolutely be good if a roller is the best option for most players.

When you suggest a hole where a roller would be the best option for even players who aren't good at rollers, I get visions of some very strange holes. That might be going a bit too far.

As I mentioned in a recent post, I love holes where a particular player won't try the same shot every time. Rollers usually provide the potential for greater distance, and they usually involve substantial risk, so most good "roller holes" will at least cause a player to think, "maybe I should go with the air shot this time."

Hope that makes sense. I'm not a fan of courses where players wind up throwing a ton of rollers, but I do think rollers have a place in disc golf and can add to the fun of playing a course.

Seems like I had good roller success on Rolling Meadow #10 last time you guys were in town. I don't recall if you were in my group at the time, but I threw a pretty safe drive, and went with the roller on the second shot. That left me short of the creek but in good position to get up and down for a birdie. That roller was very satisfying, and I'll probably try it again... if I ever have another decent drive on that hole.

Thanks,
John

 

[johnrhouck]

John...we once talked about using the scenery of what surrounds a course or a part of a course. Is there a time to design a hole that takes advantage of great views when maybe another hole design might be more challenging but loses the beauty the course has to offer?

Another great question, Sadjo.

Scenery is always an important part of disc golf.

For me, course design involves a lot of decision-making. And a lot of the decisions you make involve trade-offs. I can make an amazing hole over here, but there's no good way to get back -- is it worth it to make that trade? If I make this hole longer, I'll have to make that hole shorter -- does that swap make the course better?

So if I can get an amazing view, but I have to sacrifice challenge to do it... hmmm. The bottom line is creating the best overall experience for the player. So if you already have a few nice views but not enough challenge, maybe you go for the challenge. If your course is already testing people, you probably want the view.

There are definitely players for whom beauty is the #1 criterion. I've seen some of the world's best players fall in love with courses that really weren't that well designed, because the course just looked great. That's absolutely their right.

Obviously we want to have a great design and great beauty as much as possible. I would just urge designers not to overlook the impact great scenery can have on a player's enjoyment.

Thanks again,
John