Ask John Houck about Course Design & Development

[Steve West]

Doglegs always straighten out over time anyway. Why not run the hole through the woods straight(ish) from the tees to the target? Avoid the briars, play in the shade.

 

[Billipo]

Not interested in brushhogging entire area to straighten hole. Honestly would rather let them bleed (players fault for getting greedy) than to put that much effort into one hole only to straight line the entire hole.

Really trying to find easy solution. Maybe there isn't one. Park may not want to put effort into hole either even for the lesser amount I was thinking about.

 

[johnrhouck]

All four players shot par.

John- parallel lines near blue tees are primatve gravel roads.

I was off on my distances add about 25 feet to stated distance to dogleg. From dogleg center 175 ft to pin .

Thanks, Bill. Now we're almost through with the information-gathering stage. New questions:

1. Was everyone in the group playing from the tee that was best for their skill levels? And how rare are birdies?

2. If someone has a good drive and is sitting 175' from the pin, how often will that person get up and down? If possible, please answer for Blue (950 rated), White and Red. Ok to estimate.

3. Are those gravel roads ever used for anything by anyone?

Thanks.

 

[Billipo]

Question 1. - I have data from one PDGA event MPO and MA1. they played one round Blue and one round white. Combined Blue (3)18%, (4)64%,(5)9%, (6)9% - Combined White (3) 46%,(4)36%, (5)18%.

This past outing we had two playing blue (MPO & MA1), and two white 2-MA50..one MA50 went into briars. All shot 4s.

I do get 3s about 40%, maybe 50% par, and an occasional 5. I play from white.

Question 2. - I would say 35% - 50%. There is a slope behind pin so most players go strong knowing putting uphill is better so most upshots have a chance. Lining up drive to get 175 foot shot isn't easy. For each skill it is a significant poke to reach fairway center on drive, most players come up a little short and have to anhyzer corner which significantly reduces chances of birdie . Remember drives to fairway center - Blue 350ish, white 280 ish. Not many are perfectly lined up for a straight 175 foot shot.

Question 3. - One is a park maintenance road other goes to a pavilion. No traffic.

Additional info - drive downhill (white) for about 150 feet, then uphill to about level for another 150 ft.. After dogleg flat for about 150 ft then slopes down before pin and consistent for another 75 feet to a road. Seldom does anyone go past to the road.

I intended to take pixs the other day but I left phone at car.

Please dont hesitate to ask more questions. Thanks

 

[Billipo]

forgot DGCR has pics....One from white tee, one about 100ft + out from pin.

My bad should have shared earlier.

 

[johnrhouck]

Great answers, Bill. And thanks for pointing out the photos here on DGCR. They raise one more quick question: is the Gold tee in the photo the same as Blue, or is it something else?

 

[Billipo]

gold tees were never fully installed and then pulled for financial reasons. The current Blue is a hybrid of the original Blue and Gold.

 

[Mando]

John
I caught a you tube interview recently where you talked about a "next level" disc golf course. What do you envision exactly ?

 

[johnrhouck]

OK, Bill. Enough questions – time for some answers. Please bear with me, as my time is very limited right now, and my answer will probably take multiple posts over multiple days.

Answer #1 is my "If I could do anything" solution. It may not be completely practical, depending on your budget and ability to clear, but if it doesn't work for you, maybe it'll help someone else in a future situation. And I'll have a couple "toned down" answers for you, too.

I've done some 90-degree dogleg par fours over the years, but I mostly avoid them now. Probably the biggest reason is that the landing area tends to be small and kind of "hit or miss." I would much prefer to have landing areas with Good/Better/Best rewards. In this case, I'd be shooting for good drives being able to get up and down from as close as 150' and far away as 260' or 270'. I imagine you get that whole range now, but the longer approaches are the result of not-good drives.

So, to avoid briars and to try to make a better hole, I would first swing the Blue tee about as far left as I could while creating a right-to-left shot that has to flirt with Tree B. In this scenario, you'd have to somehow miss the line by 100' to wind up in the briars. Currently, with everyone trying to flirt with Tree A, you can make a 35' mistake and be in the briar patch. The new line should help keep people out of there, I would think.

Then, if I could, I would add the left-to-right line. It would need to be easier, since it's likely to get less reward. Good shots would make the dark green area, and better shots would make the lighter green area. To get to the best part of the landing area (yellowish oval), a righty would probably have to throw a sidearm flex shot down the right line. Or maybe you could find a third alley (riskier than the first two) that could get you there.

Anyway, that would be the foundation of the hole I would look to make if I could do anything. Next up: a simpler and more practical answer.

One last thing: I just want to add for the record that I don't like the fact that shots are going in the street. I don't see an easy fix, and that's not the exercise anyway. But I want to make sure anyone looking to make a similar hole in the future knows I'm recommending a greater buffer/distance from the street.

 

[Casey 1988]

OK, Bill. Enough questions – time for some answers. Please bear with me, as my time is very limited right now, and my answer will probably take multiple posts over multiple days.

Answer #1 is my "If I could do anything" solution. It may not be completely practical, depending on your budget and ability to clear, but if it doesn't work for you, maybe it'll help someone else in a future situation. And I'll have a couple "toned down" answers for you, too.

I've done some 90-degree dogleg par fours over the years, but I mostly avoid them now. Probably the biggest reason is that the landing area tends to be small and kind of "hit or miss." I would much prefer to have landing areas with Good/Better/Best rewards. In this case, I'd be shooting for good drives being able to get up and down from as close as 150' and far away as 260' or 270'. I imagine you get that whole range now, but the longer approaches are the result of not-good drives.

So, to avoid briars and to try to make a better hole, I would first swing the Blue tee about as far left as I could while creating a right-to-left shot that has to flirt with Tree B. In this scenario, you'd have to somehow miss the line by 100' to wind up in the briars. Currently, with everyone trying to flirt with Tree A, you can make a 35' mistake and be in the briar patch. The new line should help keep people out of there, I would think.

Then, if I could, I would add the left-to-right line. It would need to be easier, since it's likely to get less reward. Good shots would make the dark green area, and better shots would make the lighter green area. To get to the best part of the landing area (yellowish oval), a righty would probably have to throw a sidearm flex shot down the right line. Or maybe you could find a third alley (riskier than the first two) that could get you there.

Anyway, that would be the foundation of the hole I would look to make if I could do anything. Next up: a simpler and more practical answer.

One last thing: I just want to add for the record that I don't like the fact that shots are going in the street. I don't see an easy fix, and that's not the exercise anyway. But I want to make sure anyone looking to make a similar hole in the future knows I'm recommending a greater buffer/distance from the street.

I see an easy fix if allowed, get a chain link fence that 6 foot will be above ground when installed and that should stop 80-90% of shots from going too far. If the place is like a state park that does not want this but wants plants as much as possible then get a bush like a Russian olive or Lilac bush if room and if this plant is allowed if not...well screwed.

 

[Billipo]

John,
I appreciate your response. And please take your time. One reason I posted is that not only can I gather some wisdom, I can see that others may find value in your comments. I value your opinion very much.

Regarding road overthrows. You are absolutely correct to be concerned about roads in play. This is really a primative gravel road providing access to fisherman to a clearing and for park maintenance access. I have seen people parked by the lake, but never anyone actually driving on the road. The park has lots of these type gravel roads.

We have an overall rule that only named roads are OB. This one has a name because it is a continuation of a real road that enters the park that is why it is currently OB.

 

[Mando]

Hi, everybody,

Several DGCR users have asked if John could answer questions about course design. John is very touched by this request and would like to participate on this thread regularly in spite of his very busy schedule. As his business partner, I will be helping with this thread in getting the questions answered directly from him.

Please feel free to ask questions pertaining to course design, his courses, and course development. We are committed to promoting good course design principles and we will do our best to help you with the answers.

We are looking forward to hearing from you. Thanks for your support.

Dee & John Houck

John & Dee, I was curious about John's comment recently alluding to a "next level" for disc golf course design. What does that entail exactly ?

 

[johnrhouck]

John
I caught a you tube interview recently where you talked about a "next level" disc golf course. What do you envision exactly ?

Glad someone was paying attention -- thanks, Mando. That's an important question. I'll answer it probably sometime next week. Thanks for your patience.

 

[Mando]

Glad someone was paying attention -- thanks, Mando. That's an important question. I'll answer it probably sometime next week. Thanks for your patience.

Thank you. It was a good interview. Looking forward to learning more about your vision and Dee's micro-course concept.

 

[mopar]

I've found that sometimes you have to open up a hole a little more than you would like in order to get equipment in there to maintain it over the long run (whether its some sort of walk behind brush hog or a bobcat or whatever). It will grow back and can be managed better afterwards.

As long as we aren't talking about old trees (which we aren't in this case) it will grow back reasonably quickly. It will be more manageable and easier to shape how you want it while it is smaller and growing back in.

I'm wondering if it is possible to leave the front part thick (the area closest to the fairway in all directions) and clear out behind it? It might not be possible depending on what the dogleg looks like but that is how we have dealt with thick/thorny areas. The shot/line is the same but it allows the player to get into the area to retrieve their disc.

 

[Billipo]

pymatuning #14

Been reading through feedback and thinking. I appreciate all that has been submitted. Haven't had a chance to get to the course, but we have and event first weekend of October so I am sure I will be logging in many hours prior to that.

After 10 years we just got our tee pads (White and Blue) last summer so revising tee location is unlikely, but for sure I will review John's suggestion cause it does sound interesting at least as a learning opportunity. Anxious to get out there to look.

I will be sure to summarize what was ends up being executed with pixs and scores. Thanks again and any more ideas would be appreciated.

I am going to set up a meeting with the park hopefully they are willing to assist.

thanks again!

 

[johnrhouck]

OK, I'm back (for today). That last week lasted two weeks -- sorry to be away so long.

Here's my answer #2 for you, Bill. I understand that a tee move may be impractical, but let's continue with the exercise.

This time, the idea is more to change the shape of the shot to avoid the briars. It's hard to say for sure from the photos here on DGCR, but it looks like there might be some nice options for lines between the trunks of the existing trees. By moving the tee to the right this time, you can hope to force the shot left enough that shorter shots won't fade out into the briars.

With this option, the idea would be to use something on the right side (maybe the area with the green circle) to force the shot left, and now players have to flirt with Tree C and Tree D. There might be other trees that could force the shot further left, left maybe a tree that's just in front of the white tee.

One thing I like less about this solution is that it maintains the 90-degree dogleg, which I'm not crazy about, for reasons I gave above. In any case, it's about impossible for anyone sitting behind a keyboard to know what might work – you really need to be there on site, but this idea might help you find a workable solution. Answer #3 will be more practical, but I have to run -- be back soon.

 

[Billipo]

John,
I got some pixs. Pulled a favor to get pixs form one of the park guys.

From Blue tee, Center of dogleg looking back toward tees, and past pin looking back

hope this helps.

Maybe cutting left tree in blue tee pix would open up the route John is suggesting as well.

 

[Billipo]

my bad . one is road pix shot past pin looking back.

 

[Billipo]

pymatuning #14

one more pix.

original promised. road past pin looking back.