Considering Moving from Open to Am1?

[Discette]

Maybe someone here can find it. I seem to recall Paul McBeth telling a player that it is normal for Pros in MLB to go down to the minor leagues and put in the time gaining skills and confidence before coming back to the game and that it could work for disc golf as well.

 

[sidewinder22]

DON'T get upset after a bad throw, don't kill the buzz the better players are having, don't distract them. Play off their actions and attitudes and pay attention, you can really learn a lot playing with very good players.

So if you play with Big Jerm or Nikko and they have a little tirade after a bad shot you should play off that action and attitude?

 

[sidewinder22]

The entitlement I'm referring to is found in some of the responses to my post. Many players feel like they should get to play up in whatever division they want - "It's my money and if I want to donate that's my right". My point is that in other sports - specifically ball golf - you generally don't get to play with the big boys unless you are good enough to earn the right be competitive with them. That applies not only to the big tour, but at the local levels as well.

Problem with this is that there aren't enough high rated players to fill most events.

 

[TheArnoldPalmer]

hows abouts you practicing the disc throwings and plays more goods.

if you have to ask, you already dont feel good about it, so just stay in open.

x2 :thmbup:

 

[Toro71]

Maybe someone here can find it. I seem to recall Paul McBeth telling a player that it is normal for Pros in MLB to go down to the minor leagues and put in the time gaining skills and confidence before coming back to the game and that it could work for disc golf as well.

He may know more than I do, but I think what generally happens is, they are sent down against their will until they get their crap together. Or, more often, it's part of rehab for an injury. My gut tells me that if a MLB player went to his manager and said "I'm really not feeling it, can you send me down to xyz until I feel better about my game," he'd get released outright.

It's a bad analogy to compare a team sport to golf.

A better analogy would be for Tiger to go down to the Nationwide (or whatever they call it these days, Nike) Tour until he feels better about himself, kicking the crap out of up-and comers. Still not a perfect analogy, as others have pointed out, since the process to qualify and, for most players, to stay qualified for the PGA tour is so brutal that none of them would likely move down just for a confidence boost. And that most of the top touring ball golfers have a swing coach and a sports psychologist on retainer.

The point being not that it's good or bad, but that it doesn't happen. If a pro is contemplating spending time at a lower level, he's not a pro, IMO, and should maybe permanently move down, in any sport.

The problem, IMO, is that there are too many divisions, and that most if not all tournaments cater to the good players at the expense of the great players, because they're based on the wholesale/retail margin. The drive to compete should be synonymous with the drive to play at the highest level.

If advance AMs played trophy only, or something similar, and "pros" got paid out like they should, I doubt this thread would've even been started, or would've been single digit responses. This is going off-topic, obviously, but as a relative newcomer to competitive play, it just seems nuts to me that "we" want people to take this "sport" seriously, while the pinnacle of competitive play is, for all intents and purposes, the Adv Am div.

 

[spikodelhyzer]

The point being not that it's good or bad, but that it doesn't happen. If a pro is contemplating spending time at a lower level, he's not a pro, IMO, and should maybe permanently move down, in any sport.

There's like 30 people worldwide who are really "professional" disc golfs and the rest of us pros are more like weekend warriors who make a couple of bucks in disc golf every now and then.

Some dude who plays 4-6 tourneys a year isn't a pro and really it doesn't matter what division he plays for those few tourneys, pro or adv. He's rated 960 something which is like adv/pro limbo in most states with a bigger DG scene.

 

[gdub58]

It all depends on how the low rated player handles themselves. I enjoy playing up in open.

I learn so much from playing in bigger tournaments with much better players. My skills are really coming along from this. Am i going to win? No way. Do I have a chance to cash? Possibly, if I play very well and get some luck.

The key when playing up as a lower rated player is pace of play and extra courtesy. DON'T get upset after a bad throw, don't kill the buzz the better players are having, don't distract them. Play off their actions and attitudes and pay attention, you can really learn a lot playing with very good players.

All this is common tournament courtesy, but especially important if (by rating alone) you don't belong in that division.

That's all fine, and it's great that you are extra conscious of how you conduct yourself when paired with better players in a tournament.

Looking at it from the other side, I think that those better players would still rather be playing with others of the same skill level. The round flows better, it provides better focus and motivation because it is more of a challenge to win your card, and so on.

To be clear, I'm not representing myself as one of those better players. I think it applies to some degree at all levels, which is why you like playing with them - playing with those who are as good or better than you generally helps your game.

Overall, my point is that I think it will be better for the serious development of our game and the tour if we start to move towards the idea of earning your way into a division. As has been stated, some premier tournaments already do this in some form and I think we should encourage it more widely.

 

[wake911]

So if you play with Big Jerm or Nikko and they have a little tirade after a bad shot you should play off that action and attitude?

ha, if they are being stupid and outbursts, then that sets the tone of what is acceptable in the group. If they are calm and collected, that sets the tone of the group. Fall into line with the tone of the group when you are playing above your skill level, and you will enjoy yourself a lot more. (at least that is what I do and playing up is actually more fun for me, aside from the improvement its making in me)

A better analogy would be for Tiger to go down to the Nationwide (or whatever they call it these days, Nike) Tour until he feels better about himself, kicking the crap out of up-and comers. Still not a perfect analogy, as others have pointed out, since the process to qualify and, for most players, to stay qualified for the PGA tour is so brutal that none of them would likely move down just for a confidence boost. And that most of the top touring ball golfers have a swing coach and a sports psychologist on retainer.

The point being not that it's good or bad, but that it doesn't happen. If a pro is contemplating spending time at a lower level, he's not a pro, IMO, and should maybe permanently move down, in any sport.

I agree, but it isn't Tiger going down, its the 120th rated PGA Pro going down to below the Nationwide. I especially agree about if you are contemplating spending time in AM tourneys, you aren't a pro and should be reclassified as AM. That's my issue, is if you register as a Pro, then play as a Pro. If you register as an AM, play as an AM. Our system shouldn't be tough to work through if the rules for playing up/down didn't exist.

Easy Fix: just make it like this for PDGA Sanctioned Tournaments.

Pro member can play:
Open
Age Protected Open.

Am can play:
Adv - >=935
Int - 901-934
Rec - 850-899
Nov - <850
Age Protected AM

Then add that Pro members can be reclassified based on current rules:
1) The player has not accepted cash while competing in a Professional division within the past calendar year

2) The player has not previously been reclassified as an Amateur within the past five years.

3) The player's rating is...

less than 970 for males who are Open age players
less than 935 for males who are Master eligible players
less than 900 for males who are Grandmaster eligible players
less than 850 for males who are Senior Grandmaster eligible players
less than 800 for males who are Legend eligible players
less than 900 for females who are Open age players
less than 850 for females who are Master eligible players
less than 800 for females who are Grandmaster eligible players
less than 750 for females who are Senior Grandmaster eligible players

 

[Toro71]

There's like 30 people worldwide who are really "professional" disc golfs and the rest of us pros are more like weekend warriors who make a couple of bucks in disc golf every now and then.

Some dude who plays 4-6 tourneys a year isn't a pro and really it doesn't matter what division he plays for those few tourneys, pro or adv. He's rated 960 something which is like adv/pro limbo in most states with a bigger DG scene.

No, I dig where you're coming from. In the end, this is still more of an "activity" than a sport, for most of us, and it should be about enjoyment 1st. I stink it up in intermediate, and don't have a problem getting worked over by a mid-900 rated player who could also compete in ADV.

W/r/t the debate on here, I'd just say that I have more, what, respect for the guy who divs up than the guy who divs down, or lingers, padding his garage stokpile of plastic. Having like 300 discs, that's a collector, not a player, and there should be a convention for them.

That statement was more of a big-picture beef with where the competitive DG scene is at right now. The "barrier" between pro and am need, IMO, to be less blurry, and less porous.

 

[gdub58]

Problem with this is that there aren't enough high rated players to fill most events.

You are right about that. In some areas (Cincinnati is a good example), there are more sanctioned tournaments than are really needed. Last weekend they held the Bluegrass Open - played at Idlewild and Lincoln Ridge - and had 46 players across 7 divisions. That is indicative of oversaturation IMO.

Perhaps there should be a limit to the number of sanctioned tournaments an area can have in a year, based on the number of PDGA members in the region. Local groups can have all the leagues, weeklies, and unsanctioned tourneys they want, but I think the PDGA should be more selective in this regard.

And, if an area doesn't have a lot of high rated players, then there should be more tournaments that are specifically for the lower rated ones.

 

[New013]

let's be real here. disc golf is not on the level some of you are trying to put it on, it's not even close. you can not compare how our "professionals" compete with pros in other sports. secondly as it's been pointed out we should stop calling open players "professionals" because most of them aren't, they still have day jobs.

it's called open becaue it's open for anyone at any skill level to go in and compete for something more than plastic. the argument that pros don't want these players playing up is just crazy dumb. some of them might care but i can almost garuntee you that most of them want more guys playing up so the pots get bigger. the idea that restricted divisions will grow the game more than more guys playing open and the pots getting bigger is again, crazy dumb.

for bigger NT's and Majors yes it makes sense to limit who is playing Open because you want to reserve spots for players with a chance to compete at a very high level but most events aren't on that level and the guys running the tourneys will take anybody willing to jump up and put more money in the pot. i've heard multiple times from 1000 rated players that were happy more guys in NC are playing up and not hanging around in Adv because it meant more competition and more money at stake.

 

[gdub58]

That statement was more of a big-picture beef with where the competitive DG scene is at right now. The "barrier" between pro and am need, IMO, to be less blurry, and less porous.

Amen!

Someday, hopefully, disc golf will have a single, national pro tour such that it would be a really big deal that the top pros are coming to my area so I can watch the best of the best play the game. This could include a pro-am day like they have in ball golf - I would happily pay good money to be in a group with one of the elites for a casual round with some informal instruction/critique, CTPs, and other fun. I'd probably buy a few signed discs from that pro too, so even if they didn't end up finishing well into the cash they could still make some money for the week. There are 8 NTs this year (none within reasonable traveling distance to me), and that's a start, but that's not nearly enough to support the players.

Regional "pro" events could still be held for highly rated local players, a la the mini-tours in ball golf. Most sanctioned tournaments, though, would be Am only.

 

[sidewinder22]

ha, if they are being stupid and outbursts, then that sets the tone of what is acceptable in the group. If they are calm and collected, that sets the tone of the group. Fall into line with the tone of the group when you are playing above your skill level, and you will enjoy yourself a lot more. (at least that is what I do and playing up is actually more fun for me, aside from the improvement its making in me)

I don't think that's acceptable in any group. I've seen it amongst all skill levels though. Also around here in some tourneys the first round cards are mixed divisions, so you might not be playing up to be in this situation either.

 

[gdub58]

let's be real here. disc golf is not on the level some of you are trying to put it on, it's not even close. you can not compare how our "professionals" compete with pros in other sports. secondly as it's been pointed out we should stop calling open players "professionals" because most of them aren't, they still have day jobs.

it's called open becaue it's open for anyone at any skill level to go in and compete for something more than plastic. the argument that pros don't want these players playing up is just crazy dumb. some of them might care but i can almost garuntee you that most of them want more guys playing up so the pots get bigger. the idea that restricted divisions will grow the game more than more guys playing open and the pots getting bigger is again, crazy dumb.

for bigger NT's and Majors yes it makes sense to limit who is playing Open because you want to reserve spots for players with a chance to compete at a very high level but most events aren't on that level and the guys running the tourneys will take anybody willing to jump up and put more money in the pot. i've heard multiple times from 1000 rated players that were happy more guys in NC are playing up and not hanging around in Adv because it meant more competition and more money at stake.

Of course disc golf isn't on that level yet, but to pretend that the system doesn't need improvement is, as you put it, crazy dumb.

Of course pros want easy money in their division - with the current setup how else are most of them even going to break even?

And don't call it open because it is open to anyone to compete because many people can't compete in an open field - it's open to anyone who wants to enter and in many cases anyone who wants to donate. Yes, in the current system that's their right, but I think the system is, what was that term again? Oh yeah - crazy dumb.

 

[New013]

so you admit that the way the system is currently is how it has to be. thanks for admitting you were wrong, that's all we wanted.

 

[spikodelhyzer]

Of course disc golf isn't on that level yet, but to pretend that the system doesn't need improvement is, as you put it, crazy dumb.

Of course pros want easy money in their division - with the current setup how else are most of them even going to break even?

And don't call it open because it is open to anyone to compete because many people can't compete in an open field - it's open to anyone who wants to enter and in many cases anyone who wants to donate. Yes, in the current system that's their right, but I think the system is, what was that term again? Oh yeah - crazy dumb.

The system can't/won't be improved until there is way more money involved on the pro scene but I think you realize that. It is hard to tell what you are trying to argue.

You should also try to refrain from lazy semantic arguments about what open means.

 

[Dan Ensor]

Haven't read most of this, but ...

OP: Play the division you're going to play best in if your tournament game is off.

On am playin open: I wonder what our pdga dues will be when we have to fund a q-school.

 

[Toro71]

never mind

 

[Toro71]

so you admit that the way the system is currently is how it has to be. thanks for admitting you were wrong, that's all we wanted.

I dig where you're coming from w/r/t what "open" means and should mean, personally.

But we don't get there as you're saying with 12 am divisions at most events.

I do think some sort of "qualifying" for open i.e. pro will be beneficial, as you put it, when most of the open players can be pros, in the 'do it for a living' sense. If it's too easy to play open, most players won't appreciate being there, and will simply go back to the game's current pinnacle competitive levl, Adv Am. Clearly DG's not there yet.

But the problem is, as I see it, right now there's little incentive for very good, or even great (as opposed to elite) palyers to "move up."

DG may not be ready to do away with the 12-am-divisions-everyone's-a-winner-have-some-merch-bucks format, I suppose it can be argued the game is still being grown in this way.

There's one athletic competitive venue where this format is legit, IMO, and it's called the Special Olympics.

But out there, somewhere soon, there's a critical mass, IMO, where this format stops really "growing the game," and instead relegates it to perpetual "j**k-off-activity" status.

PS. any quick-draw McGraws rushing to miss my point and flame me for bashing the Special Olympics, don't bother. I've volunteer at several, and recommend it highly. There's plenty of DGers that could learn some lessons about self-importance, humility, etc, by doing so.

 

[dcon67]

You are right about that. In some areas (Cincinnati is a good example), there are more sanctioned tournaments than are really needed. Last weekend they held the Bluegrass Open - played at Idlewild and Lincoln Ridge - and had 46 players across 7 divisions. That is indicative of oversaturation IMO.

Perhaps there should be a limit to the number of sanctioned tournaments an area can have in a year, based on the number of PDGA members in the region. Local groups can have all the leagues, weeklies, and unsanctioned tourneys they want, but I think the PDGA should be more selective in this regard.

And, if an area doesn't have a lot of high rated players, then there should be more tournaments that are specifically for the lower rated ones.

What tier? Around here there are boatloads of C tier's because TD's want the PDGA sanctioning for their cheap insurance. A lot of courses are public and require insurance for any events on the property.

A tiers will draw out the pro open players due to the added cash....and I'm willing to bet there's not an oversaturation of them in your area.