Define "Professional" Disc Golfer

[Three Putt]

I don't have an issue with the term semi-pro. It's ambiguous, but implies some level of compensation that is less than one's primary paycheck. I just think disc golfers calling themselves "pros" when they bring in $2,000 is an embarrassing cry for validation.

I mean they didn't call themselves that. We did. :|

The overall of disc golf as a group decided to call these people who we knew were making $2,000/year in winnings "Pro" disc golfers. It was part of the "fake it 'til we make it" routine. We wanted there to be a professional disc golf tour so we pretended we had one. The people winning those events that we were pretending made up a professional tour de facto had to be professional disc golfers. So we called them that.

And here we are.

 

[nothinbuttree]

So is PLAYING disc golf the only applicable criteria? What about the 50+ year old who no longer plays tourneys, but teaches disc golf full time, and makes far more than they ever did playing? How about course designers? How about disc designers with engineering degrees? How about basket or tee pad designers? How about basket or tee sign installers? How about maintenance crew for a private course?

See how far off track you can get pretty fast?

 

[BogeyNoMore]

No doubt there are quite a few people who earn their living through DG, but not via their playing it ...but I wouldn't call them Professional disc golfers.

There are Professional DG instructors, course designers, manufacturers, dealers, photographers, etc. ≠ professional disc golfer.

I would hold DG to the same standard as any other sport. A coach or instructure for other sports may be a professional instructor/coach, but I wouldn't call them a professional ball player.

That said, there's a gray area. Brodie Smith might earn his living through sig disc sales + whatever Discraft pays him, even if his winnings don't place him nearly that high. Many players supplement with You Tube, sig discs, and various sponsorships.

 

[aphilso1]

I mean they didn't call themselves that. We did. :|

The overall of disc golf as a group decided to call these people who we knew were making $2,000/year in winnings "Pro" disc golfers. It was part of the "fake it 'til we make it" routine. We wanted there to be a professional disc golf tour so we pretended we had one. The people winning those events that we were pretending made up a professional tour de facto had to be professional disc golfers. So we called them that.

And here we are.

I have a dog. I have the right to name that dog whatever I want. But I don't have the right to change its breed. No matter how many times I call it a Great Dane, it's still a Scottish Terrier. In the same way, a plumber who disc golfs on the weekends is still a professional plumber. He can call himself a professional disc golfer, but the reality is that his profession is in plumbing.

"Fake it til you make it" is simply a euphemism for lying.

 

[ThrowaEnvy]

Hey hey I'm part of the pro tour round here... but I don't play tours..

 

[Three Putt]

I have a dog. I have the right to name that dog whatever I want. But I don't have the right to change its breed. No matter how many times I call it a Great Dane, it's still a Scottish Terrier. In the same way, a plumber who disc golfs on the weekends is still a professional plumber. He can call himself a professional disc golfer, but the reality is that his profession is in plumbing.

"Fake it til you make it" is simply a euphemism for lying.

But you seem to want to point the finger at the people we called Pro disc golfers. That's not assessing the blame in the right direction.

Which...blame would be a weird thing to be assessing here anyway since no harm was done. I mean, not until everybody in this thread got all butthurt, anyway. :|

ChrisWoj has a point in that the old definitions don't work anymore because there is actually starting to be an actual group of open players at the top of the sport that would legit be professionals now, but the the conversation should be about what you consider the lower-tier Open players GOING FORWARD. Arguing about what was done in 1993 is pointless.

 

[dehaas]

I know this one is gonna sting but I'll take one for the team in order to make y'all think a bit.

We're providing arguments about if semi pro is accurate.

Does that same logic apply to the semi chub?

 

[Monkeypaws]

Wait a cotton pickin minute - so being a pro disc golfer entails more than joining the PDGA?

 

[ru4por]

So let's pause for a minute and filter things and let them soak in:

Everybody here agrees there's a big difference between the few making a living playing dg and the "local pros" who snipe stray cash here and there and get stomped when real talent shows up.

Some legit discussion follows.

Internet agrees "The Champ" may be "The Champ" but never "A Pro".

Trophy only suggestion presented for ams. Nobody cares about people bragging online about how cool their vouchers are. If you wanna brag at least try to impress people with them dolla dolla bills.

Somebody with PDGA street cred blames the definition of ams and gives the rationale of "that's how it's always been" and implies no change on the horizon.

As much as we all gag when we hear "grow the sport" the PDGA is completely in the position to do so. True ams play for trophies…tournament entry fees theoretically drop substantially because there's no payout. Lower cost to play should mean more players. Growing the sport, right? True competitors don't need anything on the line. Everybody knows that guy who puts forth max effort just to say they beat you, simple as that. Player packs are still kosher…you can continue the "am scam" model and let the difference between wholesale and retail be how TD's pay themselves for their time and effort…or…we're all adults here so follow along…there's actual transparency and on paper TD's can show they're paying themselves and nobody cries about it. Doesn't have to be hidden.

100% PDGA made the bed they currently sleep in and doesn't appear to have any intention on fixing it. This is probably gonna across brutally harsh, and I'm all about people having the ability to make a living. At some point in the past somebody caved and said it was cool for vendors to run tournaments and offer merch instead of cash and that's how the "am scam" began. At the time that was considered "growing the sport" and like all stagnant organizations it's allowed to ride free and clear without fresh thought.

At this point I run way more than I dg. Race entry budget far exceeds disc purchase budget at this point. Ultramarathons range typically from $50-250 depending on distance and amount of support provided typically. The ultra scene is very much grassroots just like dg. Normally I receive a shirt and a finisher medal, no payouts unless you're setting a course record or winning a big race somewhere. Like dg a lot of race directors will put on one race a year and it's a labor of love. Others host multiples and that's what they do for a living…nobody bats an eye at the fact that part of your entry goes straight to the race director.

They're providing a service…that has value to others. Again, we're all adults?

The resistance to fix a lot of the issues the PDGA created in the first place seems to be they don't want to go back against themselves? That doesn't come across as very growth oriented to me?

I'd love to be proven otherwise. The sport is at a very pivotal point. Covid boom practically handed over way more opportunity than any genius marketing team could ever conjure up.

You left me out. I don't care. I am not a pro, will not be a pro, have no interest in pros and from a club perspective...really don't cater to pros. I also don't think the sport is grown through the pro side.

 

[ru4por]

Wait a cotton pickin minute - so being a pro disc golfer entails more than joining the PDGA?

No, it does not.

 

[txmxer]

Wait a cotton pickin minute - so being a pro disc golfer entails more than joining the PDGA?

I keep telling my son that.

 

[Pevio]

I can't be bothered to read the entire thread, but we should entertain the idea of a semi-professional: Someone who is net positive on Disc Golf, all fees included, but doesn't make enough for it to be much more than a hobby, and certainly not a full-time career. Such a person would be considered a professional by the PDGA (and rightly so, I think), but not by some of the more traditional definitions of the word.

 

[_MTL_]

Wait a cotton pickin minute - so being a pro disc golfer entails more than joining the PDGA?

You also have to update your work status on facebook to professional disc golfer and make a fan page. Bonus points if the work is at the PDGA or the fan page includes your PDGA number in the title.

 

[ballgolfconvert]

I'm not mocking women. At no point in anything I've stated have I mocked women. I made the mistake of making it an edit, so I'll restate it here:

As was stated earlier referring to baseball or football in the 1930s/1950s - When much of your league is composed of people who can not put their entire focus on their craft, and instead is stuck working side gigs like house cleaning or packing up Amazon boxes, and stuck competing against people who can spend their entire year training: that is not a league composed entirely of professional athletes. That statement is not misogynistic, misogynistic would be saying that that is how it should be. Misogynistic would be saying that these women DESERVE to be paid like something less than professionals. They compose themselves to the extent they can as professionals, but their pay scale simply does not allow it. Calling attention to the way that a league LIES about what it is so that the problem can be solved is not misogyny.

You play events for money, you are a professional. Most professionals never were able to compete at the top echelons of their sport but that fact alone does not make them a non-professional. Are some people who call themselves pros delusional? Absolutely.

 

[ballgolfconvert]

Proctor is a Pro. Semi just means part time. You can call him either, it's fine.

Semi-pros are still pros. The distinction is pro vs. touring pro.

 

[Hampstead]

In the hierarchy of pro disc golfers, where does Joe Bishop fit into all of this?

 

[Dcinmd]

Correct. As noted by foxdawg - those players were semi-professional at best. The sport simply wasn't at a level where everyone playing was actually a professional baseball player or football player. And I consider there to be a significant difference in talent that should reflect on the accomplishments of the best players in the sport from those era - players who earned enough to not have to work a side job throughout the off-season had a significant performance advantage over those who did. That is not a characteristic of a league completely composed of professionals.

First time I have EVER heard of Yogi Berra, Stan Musical, Willie Mays or Jim Palmer as a semi-pro.

But hey whatever floats your boat.

https://medium.com/buzzer-beater/when-ballplayers-had-offseason-jobs-66bba31cecb2

In Game Two of the 1966 World Series, 20-year-old pitcher Jim Palmer tossed a complete-game shutout against the Los Angeles Dodgers. The Baltimore Orioles won the series and Palmer became an overnight sensation. Palmer's salary for the season was $7,500. Even with his $11,000 World Series bonus, it wasn't enough to cover the cost of a new home and the birth of his first child. So he took a second job. He sold suits at Hamburgers Clothing in downtown Baltimore for $150 a week, "enough to pay for groceries, hot water and electricity."

Long before the multi-million dollar salaries and lucrative signing bonuses, Major League Baseball players worked for peanuts. In 1947 the minimum MLB salary was $5,000. Compare this to the 2017 minimum salary of $535,000 a year. With few exceptions, ballplayers of old had to take offseason jobs to make ends meet. This was true for stars and journeymen alike.

 

[araytx]

By using your 1000 rated logic there are pretty much no professionals playing in the FPO division.

Well, if you count disc golf-related income, maybe there is one. That may qualify as "pretty much none," though.


Everyone on this thread (it's TL;DR it all) is arguing over a definition, not differing opinions. everyone has their own opinion so be it.

So here's the interesting story (which I knew a lot about) related to Roger Staubach. I was in the audience once at one of his talks when he spoke of asking the Cowboys management to allow him to get everything cleaned out of his locker and stuff on MONDAY NIGHT after a Super Bowl win, because he had to be at his other job on Monday morning!

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/09/09/nfl...-off-the-field-than-any-player-heres-how.html

 

[ChrisWoj]

You play events for money, you are a professional.

I'm really not.

Most professionals never were able to compete at the top echelons of their sport but that fact alone does not make them a non-professional.

At no point have I said you have to compete at the top echelon of your sport to be considered a professional. You have to be capable of earning a living at it. Big difference.

 

[biscoe]

At no point have I said you have to compete at the top echelon of your sport to be considered a professional. You have to be capable of earning a living at it. Big difference.

I don't think it can be as outcome based as this. If Paul's skills were to erode overnight to the point where he is scrapping for last cash at events is he no longer a professional?