Discing down adventures.

[mostlynorwegian]

Frolf morning with tree's and the following:

Rpro Pig 172g
G* Wedge 162g
Star Des Reading Stingray 180g
S-line GM 167g
Rpro Cro 171g
G* Leopard, 161g
Pro Gazelle 163g
G* Gazelle 171g
G-Line FD 166g
Star AJ Teebird 171g
Champion Firebird 175g
Pro Katana 167g

I threw in the wooded part of the park with a 200 - 450 foot range with guardian, threading tunnels and low branches. No real wind to work against or with today either. Mostly hit my targets in 2 to 3 throws with a few park jobs courtesy the Katana, Wedge, FD, and Stingray added in for good measure along with a few errant wtf was that throws. Some tree love bounces, and some tree not love ones too. A productive morning overall with a good percentage of jump putts landing where they should.

 

[BrotherDave]

This is tough actually. A Theory or Tangent will work but nothing MVP/Axiom makes has the balance of gyro and glide (that neutrality) across as many plastics and weights as the Comet does. You can get any Comet with some dome and it will clean up your form (even heavy Z's). What's really unique about the Comet is how much it likes to fade forward even though it has a fairly sharp nose, as opposed to blunt putters and mids that are prone to fading forward. MVP's mids are more shaped like putters or blunt, Buzzz-type mids.

I think a seasoned Axis would work well. When new, they're too easy to throw straight compared to a Comet but the HSS and LSS beats out of them and they become more neutral. A heavy Theory is fairly neutral but if you went lighter it might be too understable. A lighter Tangent should work too but it has a very putter shaped rim and putter shaped flight so in heavier weights they can fly like a 170+ straight putter, just with a wider diameter. Maybe a Plasma Tangent would work better, the heavy Neutrons I've owned were a little too HSS to feel neutral or float like a Comet.

Honestly, the best MVP disc they've ever made for this in my experience were the Ions made right after the 1st runs (the blue core/red rim ones that cost $$$$). Most of those 2nd run, textured, opaque Protons with the raised tooling Ions had slightly mismolded overmolds that sat too low on the rim, making them small bead. MVP "fixed" them by raising the overmold and exposing the bead so they flew more like Wizards, which is what they wanted. But those were so magically neutral and gyro that they really had that Comet characteristic of "doing whatever you told it to" required that you threw it correctly. I've been hoping that MVP would make produce something that flew like those (Anodes and Soft Proxies are both too HSS IMO) but I found it yet, maybe I haven't found the right mold/plastic/weight combo yet.


They're awesome but they have great HSS and slight LSS. I think it's the easiest to throw straight mid MVP makes but NOT necessarily form responsive.

Fixed. Mea Culpa

 

[ThrowaEnvy]

Brother Dave has a point with those early run Ions well the one I have haha. It drove me nuts because I just couldn't throw it well for a while but believing in gyro neutrality and superior engineering I persevered until I became a huge fan. I think he's out to lunch on the Axis being more neutral than a Theory but I do favour lighter discs and had no luck with light Axis's, prefer the 174g. The axis does hold an amazing line but needs a fair bit of juice to get moving unlike a Comet.

Nothing is a Comet... its the only non Gyro disc regularly in my bag.

 

[VLaForce2002]

Brother Dave, i truly appreciate the detail in your response. To all who have spoken of the merits of the Comet, you've convinced me to get one as part of the learning process; if for no other reason than to have it for comparison when selecting a learning/training disc from another company.

In consuming this entire thread, i had formed the impression that the two main characteristics that make the Comet such a good training disc was under stability (as in the opposite of HSS) and glide. And that these characteristics made it "form responsive"

In my quest to throw a putter 300 feet, I have been working with several but pinning my aspirations on throwing a 165g Nova 300 feet. But what feels like the same form that scoots the Nova down the field 180 feet will make the Tangent turn into the ground short of 150 feet. Therefore Brother Dave's much appreciated input fed my confirmation bias that the Tangent or Theory would be the most form responsive discs. And yet, I get the nagging suspicion that y'all might disagree with the axiom (sorry, couldn't help it):
The best training disc by any manufacturer = the most form sensitive = their most under-stable (1st), slowest (2nd; if a mid is more under stable than a putter choose the mid) and lighter the better (3rd)

 

[ru4por]

Brother Dave, i truly appreciate the detail in your response. To all who have spoken of the merits of the Comet, you've convinced me to get one as part of the learning process; if for no other reason than to have it for comparison when selecting a learning/training disc from another company.

In consuming this entire thread, i had formed the impression that the two main characteristics that make the Comet such a good training disc was under stability (as in the opposite of HSS) and glide. And that these characteristics made it "form responsive"

In my quest to throw a putter 300 feet, I have been working with several but pinning my aspirations on throwing a 165g Nova 300 feet. But what feels like the same form that scoots the Nova down the field 180 feet will make the Tangent turn into the ground short of 150 feet. Therefore Brother Dave's much appreciated input fed my confirmation bias that the Tangent or Theory would be the most form responsive discs. And yet, I get the nagging suspicion that y'all might disagree with the axiom (sorry, couldn't help it):
The best training disc by any manufacturer = the most form sensitive = their most under-stable (1st), slowest (2nd; if a mid is more under stable than a putter choose the mid) and lighter the better (3rd)

Be careful, you might fall in love.

 

[slowplastic]

The best training disc by any manufacturer = the most form sensitive = their most under-stable (1st), slowest (2nd; if a mid is more under stable than a putter choose the mid) and lighter the better (3rd)

I don't necessarily think completely understable is best for training. I think that true stable/straight is best...something that will hold lines but not go way right if you throw it too hard or fade out of a bad throw either. Slower discs like putters and mids tend to be true flying over the largest velocity range. If a disc is too understable you may back off on it for worry of flipping it; you should be confident you can smash into the disc and make sure your form stays clean even at higher effort throws.

Honestly I think most putters out there are great for this, from an Aviar to a non-fresh Wizard to a Judge or an Anode. Lots of mids work well but the Comet is like a putter flight in a mid. If I throw my Comet the same way as a putter I can expect the same line but 30-50' more distance at my arm speed.

I think that a variety of discs is best for practice: putters, straight mids, moderately understable mids, as well as understable and straight-stable fairways to speed 9. If you have enough arm speed then of course throw high speed stuff too, as long as you don't have to 100% it to get it to fly. All discs of reasonable stability will expose different issues.

But, if you can throw a putter or mid like a Comet with full confidence at 85%+ power, and you know how to throw nose down, you will have very good success with drivers. Average player driver form doesn't necessarily translate to a putter or Comet, but a hard true Comet throw means you can throw fairways really well.

 

[art_vandelay]

I feel like the progression is: Learn to throw a putter straight to about 200 to 225. Because you were able to do that, you now should be able to throw a comet about 50 feet more throwing about the same way. So now your out to 275 approaching fairway driver range.... you should now be able to control most understable to stable fairways. Choose to mess with high speed and super speed at your own risk. That's what I think anyway.

 

[BrotherDave]

Brother Dave, i truly appreciate the detail in your response. To all who have spoken of the merits of the Comet, you've convinced me to get one as part of the learning process; if for no other reason than to have it for comparison when selecting a learning/training disc from another company.

In consuming this entire thread, i had formed the impression that the two main characteristics that make the Comet such a good training disc was under stability (as in the opposite of HSS) and glide. And that these characteristics made it "form responsive"

In my quest to throw a putter 300 feet, I have been working with several but pinning my aspirations on throwing a 165g Nova 300 feet. But what feels like the same form that scoots the Nova down the field 180 feet will make the Tangent turn into the ground short of 150 feet. Therefore Brother Dave's much appreciated input fed my confirmation bias that the Tangent or Theory would be the most form responsive discs. And yet, I get the nagging suspicion that y'all might disagree with the axiom (sorry, couldn't help it):
The best training disc by any manufacturer = the most form sensitive = their most under-stable (1st), slowest (2nd; if a mid is more under stable than a putter choose the mid) and lighter the better (3rd)

Okay here's why the Comet is the de facto recommendation for form work: It's not necessarily understable, it's neutral. In Innova flight speak it's basically a turn of 0 and a fade of 0 so theoretically if you throw one flat and get it up to its optimum speed it should travel dead straight in whatever direction you send it. Now, some X Comets can be a little on the understable side and some Z Comets can be a bit on the overstable side but for the most part, Comets across plastics are extremely neutral compared to a lot of other molds. (A slightly domey Comet is best).

An understable disc will be very form sensitive but it's also not as informative if you can't keep it from burning into the ground. The reverse is true for an overstable mid, if you can't keep it from meathooking hard out of your hand it's not telling you much about your form.

Slower is generally better but the thing to keep in mind is: The slower the disc, the less nose angle sensitive. The less nose angle sensitive, the easier it is to throw somewhere. So a blunt putter will be easier to throw to 200' than a slightly blunt midrange. But, learning how to throw on the proper nose angle (nose down generally) is a huge part of improving form so don't totally discount drivers. A slow FW driver like a Leopard, Gazelle, Cheetah, etc makes a great first driver for improving nose angle.

Lighter is also not necessarily better. The lighter the disc, the easier you can get it up to speed and thus get the flight path it's capable of but it's also harder to feel the hit the lighter you get. You want to make the disc feel "heavy" in your hand (in particular the opposite end of your grip) so you need a relaxed, fluid arm. The heavy disc sensation is a lot easier to feel in a heavier disc. You can feel the hit in a 150g disc fine but you'll have to really have a relaxed, wet noodle of an arm to do it.

Now that I've likely thoroughly confused you, enjoy your Comet.

 

[mostlynorwegian]

Yesterday was a four disc day with the Wedge, Stingray, Leopard, and FD at a new park I bike through on the way to my new job. Speaking of nose angles. There is also elevation to factor in. A welcome change for this Chicagoan.
Be a nice pre or post work stop.

 

[TAFL]

Brother Dave, i truly appreciate the detail in your response. To all who have spoken of the merits of the Comet, you've convinced me to get one as part of the learning process; if for no other reason than to have it for comparison when selecting a learning/training disc from another company.
...
In my quest to throw a putter 300 feet, I have been working with several but pinning my aspirations on throwing a 165g Nova 300 feet. But what feels like the same form that scoots the Nova down the field 180 feet will make the Tangent turn into the ground short of 150 feet. ...

If it's developing form you're doing with driving putters, then I'll suggest an Aero. Stable-neutral, will hold the lines you put it on. Great for developing form, because it reveals all flaws. Will glide for days.

If MVP produced a disc that flies like an Aero, I'd be all over it.

 

[Mushin No Shin]

Currently bagging only 1 Glo Mini Wizard
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Discin waaaayyyyy down adventures

 

[Dr. Bogey]

Goodbye Volts and Valks, the time for discing down has come. I got a 164 DX Leopard3 for Christmas, and it's gonna be my main driver for a few months. I'm keeping my Predator for utility shots and big wind, and one Volt for loose-your-disc-on-the-right holes.

I played my first round of the year with this driver setup, and I can already tell that I should've done this long ago. The Leopard3 is revealing wrist-rolling issues that were masked by the Volts' stability and the Valks' fade.

 

[Quinum]

I'm going to try a discing down adventure of my own. I don't know exactly what happened, but I've definitely lost some of my mojo off the tee. My drives have been pretty terrible lately, and this was after a few months of pretty consistent play with solid (for me) distance. There is a pitch and putt course where I work, so I will be playing lunch rounds with nothing but this in the good ol' nut sac:

Protege Clutch x2 (One for putts, one for upshots and drives)
Icon Clutch (Stable/OS putter drives)
Z Comet (Workhorse)
Pinnacle Ghost (Wind)

I hope to work on slowing things down and figure out why I've been worse than usual lately...

 

[rayoflight]

I've been working with my Fuse to tighten up my form and reduce the amount of OAT in my throw. It seems like any time I throw a driver I try to throw it harder and faster, which causes me to tense up my muscles too much and do goofy things, so this has been good for me to work with mids a little more. At the very least, I can now throw understable discs a lot harder without turning them into the ground, which is good progress for me.

The problem I think I'm having now though is that, even if I'm getting my release angles and OAT fixed up with my Fuse practice, I don't know of a disc that will diagnose the nose-up problems that (I think) I have. It seems like my Fuse actually flies very well on a nose-up throw so long as I don't torque it over to the right, so it's fixing one bad habit while encouraging another bad habit. Are there any discs in the 3-6 speed range that are exceptionally sensitive to nose angle which I can use to practice? Please no Comet recommendations. I can't handle the rim and hand-feel on that disc.

 

[BrotherDave]

I liked to use a slow FW driver for this, like Gazelle, Cyclone, Cheetah, Leopard, JLS, etc. A DX Teebird or Eagle will work well too. Squall, Stalker, and Kaxe Z would probably work really well too. If you like Trilogy, the Seer is a fun understable driver (I like max weight Opto Fuses and I find Seers to be a little touchier though).

The trick is not speeding yourself up too fast, too soon when you go up to drivers. If you're like me, you tend to psyche yourself subconsciously with a driver thinking, "I've got to throw this hard." You can throw your driver just as smoothly and methodically as your Fuse and if the driver isn't going quite fast enough it's easier to power up a little and stay clean than it is to power down from a sloppy throw first, IMO.

 

[slowplastic]

I've been working with my Fuse to tighten up my form and reduce the amount of OAT in my throw. It seems like any time I throw a driver I try to throw it harder and faster, which causes me to tense up my muscles too much and do goofy things, so this has been good for me to work with mids a little more. At the very least, I can now throw understable discs a lot harder without turning them into the ground, which is good progress for me.

The problem I think I'm having now though is that, even if I'm getting my release angles and OAT fixed up with my Fuse practice, I don't know of a disc that will diagnose the nose-up problems that (I think) I have. It seems like my Fuse actually flies very well on a nose-up throw so long as I don't torque it over to the right, so it's fixing one bad habit while encouraging another bad habit. Are there any discs in the 3-6 speed range that are exceptionally sensitive to nose angle which I can use to practice? Please no Comet recommendations. I can't handle the rim and hand-feel on that disc.

I would go up to a speed 7ish disc, or a Leo which is speed 6. Reason being you want something that has a sharper fairway-style rim profile, if it is too blunt like a midrange then they will tolerate nose up throws. Ideally I would choose something like 7/5/-1/1...like say a Discmania S-FD. This is because it is a sharp enough nose to need to be thrown nose down to fly right, and when it is thrown nose down it will give you some noticeable turn. That right there will show you: If it's nose up then it will go straight, float, and fade in a sweeping way. If it's nose down it will push forward, drift right, then drift left at the end. Also it is slow enough and glidey enough that you really don't need to throw it all that hard or think of having to throw it hard, to get it to fly right.

However if you are throwing under 250' or so, then I'd choose a DX Leo instead. That way it will show you more turn and be more responsive to your power level.

 

[Putt for D'oh]

I would go up to a speed 7ish disc, or a Leo which is speed 6. Reason being you want something that has a sharper fairway-style rim profile, if it is too blunt like a midrange then they will tolerate nose up throws.

Fuse is a speed 6 disc as well, but has a very blunt profile.
I'd suggest a River. When I have nose angle release issues the river seems to highlight it most of all. I throw mainly Teebird, FD, River as my drivers. I've not seen consistency in PLH in plastic types to find one more understable than another.

 

[VLaForce2002]

Axiom inspire or insanity are candidates also IMO

 

[TAFL]

Are there any discs in the 3-6 speed range that are exceptionally sensitive to nose angle which I can use to practice? Please no Comet recommendations. I can't handle the rim and hand-feel on that disc.

I know a Mako is reasonably sensitive to nose issues. I know when I get the nose up on a throw with one it won't fly far and will stall (I practice stall shots with it). When the nose is down, it'll carry so much farther than when thrown flat, too. It makes for a wonderful practice disc, being stable-neutral and holding the release angles well and being reasonably sensitive to nose angles.

 

[ThrowaEnvy]

Everything Bro Dave said... Opto fuse good idea if you don't have one.. What about the Tursas it is similiar to a Comet but feels better in hand might be a little understable I'm not a Fuse guy.. And the Buzzz it's a little beefy but a fairly fast mid if nose up is a problem it will show up.. Finally how about an MVP product when it comes to nose up they tend to punish you the Tangent or Axis is something that would take as much clean power as you can give it.