Discmania splits with Innova

[Jolt]

Looking back at that Paige Pierce Fierce video, Discraft made the mold pices in house and Paige her self got to polish the mold. . and it looked like they mad e that mold in under an hour

 

[Rastnav]

I know. You'd think I'd have learned by now! Someday this millennial will learn how to internet properly! Lol

But it's a hot button thing for me when people don't realize how complex something is and liken it to something someone does in their garage. It's one of those "pride in what you do" things.

Again, what that dude does is AWESOME but we aren't comparing the same things here.

Totally understand that feeling.

I did try acknowledge that DIY and industrial production were different animals. I was just surprised, at a gut level, by the very large difference in price that was being floated out there on a 3rd hand basis. I wasn't in any way intending to suggest that industrial builds aren't worth what they cost, nor that people who do those builds aren't professionals worthy of respect.

 

[dehaas]

Big question, what will sell more.

Discmanias new originals or the actual originals molds under new names produced by Innova.

I'm wondering the same thing.

I think a lot of it depends on how legit the new DM plastic is, and which companies the OG models land with.

 

[Rastnav]

With 3D printing the process of copying a disc and refining the design to essentially identical should be relatively easy.

Of course, I don't know that it would be that hard using older manual techniques. Make castings of the original disc, build mold from that. Thinking of some of the stuff Mythbusters would do on the show.

To add on to what jakebake said, given that discs cool to a different shape than they are molded to, casting or 3D scanning the produced disc doesn't give you a mold that you can use to reproduce the disc.

But you can compare something you newly produce to the existing stock to see how they measure up. Which they are going to do as part of their prototyping process, regardless of how they came up with the specs for the mold. Rinse and repeat until you get what you want.

And I highly doubt that those boxes shown in the video were the first time Simon and Eagle laid hands on a possible OL replacement. I would think those are the first "final production spec" discs.

 

[Rastnav]

I'm wondering the same thing.

I think a lot of it depends on how legit the new DM plastic is, and which companies the OG models land with.

I'm guessing it depends on the relative production capacity available, because I think the already produced DM P2s are going to sell out extremely fast. Assuming these really are good versions of P2s, I see no reason to think demand won't meet manufacturing capacity for quite a while.

 

[txmxer]

All they would need is the specs from the original disc. Then is pretty easy to redesign a mold around that. I'm guessing that DM probably has rights to the technical data and dimensions of their own discs, even if using Innova molds.

The sticky part involves any patents/copyright on exact replication of a disc. I'm guessing that they cleared that hurdle.


Ps.....that process you outlined doesn't work to make an injection mold. That's more for like a poured casting kind of thing.

Fair enough. Just thinking out loud about duplicating the shape,. I guess the molds are actually cut with CNC, so you need a 3d model. ?

I don't know what the operating temps are, but I know the mold has to go from melted plastic to something stable very quickly. They would have cooling pathways and such. Tremendous stress on materials to go from hot to cold repeatedly.

 

[sjberry2017]

All they would need is the specs from the original disc. Then is pretty easy to redesign a mold around that. I'm guessing that DM probably has rights to the technical data and dimensions of their own discs, even if using Innova molds.

The sticky part involves any patents/copyright on exact replication of a disc. I'm guessing that they cleared that hurdle.


Ps.....that process you outlined doesn't work to make an injection mold. That's more for like a poured casting kind of thing.

The first two paragraphs are where it's really tricky; if they copy the Firebird wing, for example, that's going to be a direct violation of any patent Innova has. Since we're dealing with Sweden/Finland, they'd probably more than likely enforce any patent time Innova has remaining on that design…unlike China with the blatant copies of many vehicles etc. Heck, even India doesn't care (Google Mahindra versus Jeep).

As to what you said earlier, I respect where you're coming from. I'm just saying I also deal with this stuff and you can probably get tooling made that's close to as good from local machine shops. A disc itself is pretty straightforward with the flight plate and wing (hence all the combos with the "Firebird wing" or "anhyzer top" etc.), so I don't think it's anything a quality CNC machine and some hardening couldn't knock out

 

[Countchunkula]

I'm confused as heck here.

Trash Panda has had multiple injection molds made, I think 4 total before he worked out all of his design spec mistakes, for his DIY disc making project. They were in the range of hundreds of dollars to make. I realize there is always a difference between a truly industrial quality build and DIY build, but 20 to 40 times the price? What exactly is making a single mold so expensive?

We had a bobbin mold quoted earlier this year at $13k, supplier would also mold the parts so they have incentive not to stick it to us on the tooling. The part is much smaller than a disc, but much more complex and almost certainly with much tighter tolerances.

So my answer is...IDK.

 

[Flick Maniac]

My head is still spinning. The Prodigy hype when they first showed up has nothing on this.

And as amazing as this is, like someone said, think 5-10 years down the line.

 

[jakebake91]

Fair enough. Just thinking out loud about duplicating the shape,. I guess the molds are actually cut with CNC, so you need a 3d model. ?

I don't know what the operating temps are, but I know the mold has to go from melted plastic to something stable very quickly. They would have cooling pathways and such. Tremendous stress on materials to go from hot to cold repeatedly.

A 3d model is preferred, but we can actually work with the 2d "blueprint" if needed too. That route sucks though. We basically redraw the geometry in 3d form in our CAM software, which is redundant if there already is a 3d model around (which, in this era, there absolutely is).

And the heat is a big stressor, but the clamping force is as much or more of one. We're talking clamping forces of probably a minimum of 30 tons (semi educated guess), probably more. That's a LOT of force.

 

[Horsman]

Give me a Tilt not produced with Lat64 Plastic, yes please.

 

[Jolt]

The new factory- - -looks like Lat64 factory

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKV2_-f8KXo

They dont know the demand so how will they know when to stop the machine?

 

[jakebake91]

As to what you said earlier, I respect where you're coming from. I'm just saying I also deal with this stuff and you can probably get tooling made that's close to as good from local machine shops. A disc itself is pretty straightforward with the flight plate and wing (hence all the combos with the "Firebird wing" or "anhyzer top" etc.), so I don't think it's anything a quality CNC machine and some hardening couldn't knock out

Yes, any competent machine shop can machine out the individual pieces, sure. But getting all of those pieces, and other pieces you've not taken into account (entire ejection system for example) to fit together and function is something only shops dedicated to tool building really can do properly. It's a very specialized niche of the "machining" trade.

Your local CNC shop, no matter how good, doesn't have the know-how to pull it off.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

That's a LOT of force.

Don't tell me they bought that mold from Discraft?!

 

[BuiltTooLong]

Big question, what will sell more.

Discmanias new originals or the actual originals molds under new names produced by Innova.

I think the answer to this question relies on the hype machine as much as the actual quality of molds. If Simon and Eagle are actively throwing these new discs right away and placing high, they will fly off the shelves.

Now if Heimburg and Wysocki started bagging some of these discs converted under the Innova or Infinite name and BigSexyBari keeps mentioning it over and over on Jomez, I think they have a chance to steal a large piece of the DM market. There are a lot frustrated players who have not been able to get there hands on discs or have to grossly overpay. We'll see how loyal these people are over the next several months.

Right now DM is basically claiming they are nearly identical molds, at some point, when people realize they fly quite a bit different, the marketing will have to shift again, or the molds completely retweaked.

 

[Lastchancer88]

While this was the obvious best choice for the long haul, there's no guarantee their new molds are going to fly like the true Originals molds.

It's literally his job to approve and to hype the new molds and plastics. He can just wipe the stamp of his real originals and viewers wouldn't really know the difference.

I have to wonder if he'll be throwing these new putters in the World Championships this week. On one hand it would give the best exposure possible, so maybe Jussi will pull for it (or even give bonus for it). His putting has been solid as of late though, so prob not a good idea to rock the boat for the World Championship. opcorn:

What a pessimistic view! His "literal job" is unknown to us unless you've seen his contract, which I doubt. I imagine it doesn't say "fanboi hype any and all discmania products no matter your personal opinion." He sure didn't fill his bag with EVO stuff. Do I think it was a little contrived to miss a putt with the Innova made p2 and make all the others? yes. Do I think he is relieved because he doesn't have to try and force himself to like the Link/Logic/Sensei? Yes.

I'm personally just happy that he picked them up, seemed to genuinely like them, and proceed to throw one in from 100+ feet. If that really is his job, then job done.

I doubt he'll use them in the tournament seeing as how they're not PDGA approved as far as I can find.

 

[Rastnav]

A 3d model is preferred, but we can actually work with the 2d "blueprint" if needed too. That route sucks though. We basically redraw the geometry in 3d form in our CAM software, which is redundant if there already is a 3d model around (which, in this era, there absolutely is).

And the heat is a big stressor, but the clamping force is as much or more of one. We're talking clamping forces of probably a minimum of 30 tons (semi educated guess), probably more. That's a LOT of force.

So here another question, if you'll allow. Why are you thinking the pressures involved are so high? Just based on a guess of Jesse's weight and the length of the arm he is hanging on I'm thinking he is exerting less than 1/2 ton worth of force when he is injecting. And it seems like injection pressure is directly related to the weight of the disc.

Are the plastics involved in production quality discs requiring that much more injection force? If so, is there an easy to understand reason why? Or, as is more likely, am I just really misunderstanding what happens in high capacity injection molding?

 

[BuiltTooLong]

What a pessimistic view! His "literal job" is unknown to us unless you've seen his contract, which I doubt. I imagine it doesn't say "fanboi hype any and all discmania products no matter your personal opinion." He sure didn't fill his bag with EVO stuff. Do I think it was a little contrived to miss a putt with the Innova made p2 and make all the others? yes. Do I think he is relieved because he doesn't have to try and force himself to like the Link/Logic/Sensei? Yes.

I'm personally just happy that he picked them up, seemed to genuinely like them, and proceed to throw one in from 100+ feet. If that really is his job, then job done.

I doubt he'll use them in the tournament seeing as how they're not PDGA approved as far as I can find.

He has been very candid in the past that he values putting on a show over winning. He's also worked for the last how many years for a disc golf marketing company not a manufacturer.

It's not really a secret that the more discs Simon can sell, the more $ Simon can make. It's in his best interest to be excited and hype the new molds. Not sure what is so pessimistic about that viewpoint/reality.

 

[jakebake91]

So here another question, if you'll allow. Why are you thinking the pressures involved are so high? Just based on a guess of Jesse's weight and the length of the arm he is hanging on I'm thinking he is exerting less than 1/2 ton worth of force when he is injecting. And it seems like injection pressure is directly related to the weight of the disc.

Are the plastics involved in production quality discs requiring that much more injection force? If so, is there an easy to understand reason why? Or, as is more likely, am I just really misunderstanding what happens in high capacity injection molding?

It has a lot to do with the rate at which plastic is being injected into the mold. Injection pressure is also more of a factor in the amount of plastic you're squeezing into a mold. So, kind of related to weight, if your packing the mold more "full" you're going to need more pressure to do it. This isn't taking into account any weighting agents or anything like that.

 

[runningDoc]

discmania pro(s) needs to win championships and majors ASAP with the new plastic and the sales will follow.