Discmania splits with Innova

[Streets]

discmania pro(s) needs to win champion and majors STAT with the new plastic and the sales will follow.

This...because so far, all of this is just hype from sponsored players who are paid to hype and sell.

 

[sjberry2017]

Yes, any competent machine shop can machine out the individual pieces, sure. But getting all of those pieces, and other pieces you've not taken into account (entire ejection system for example) to fit together and function is something only shops dedicated to tool building really can do properly. It's a very specialized niche of the "machining" trade.

Your local CNC shop, no matter how good, doesn't have the know-how to pull it off.

Alright, talked to my die guy. 17 years experience at burnstein von seelen messing around with precision metal castings before moving into the tool and die business for anything to do with extrusion etc. Showed him a disc, described the process and what goes into it. Given the heats (estimating a max of 500-600 degrees with a melt temp of 350ish), doesn't need to be heat treated so 41-48 steel is fine. For a two piece die to make the disc, he'd charge less than a $1000.

 

[Rastnav]

It has a lot to do with the rate at which plastic is being injected into the mold. Injection pressure is also more of a factor in the amount of plastic you're squeezing into a mold. So, kind of related to weight, if your packing the mold more "full" you're going to need more pressure to do it. This isn't taking into account any weighting agents or anything like that.

So does that mean higher production rates means higher injection pressures? And does this somehow relate to how long the disc has to stay in the mold before it can be removed?

I guess I'm wondering how there would be a 60x difference in injection pressure and yet the discs would be the same weight and roughly the same stiffness.

 

[jakebake91]

Alright, talked to my die guy. 17 years experience at burnstein von seelen messing around with precision metal castings before moving into the tool and die business for anything to do with extrusion etc. Showed him a disc, described the process and what goes into it. Given the heats (estimating a max of 500-600 degrees with a melt temp of 350ish), doesn't need to be heat treated so 41-48 steel is fine. For a two piece die to make the disc, he'd charge less than a $1000.

That you can put in an actual injection press and make good parts? That's infeasible.

For two pieces of steel with a disc shape cavity and core and a nozzle to inject plastic (ie trash panda mold) yes. That I'll buy.

That's not what they are running in the factories though, I guarantee it.

 

[jakebake91]

So does that mean higher production rates means higher injection pressures? And does this somehow relate to how long the disc has to stay in the mold before it can be removed?

I guess I'm wondering how there would be a 60x difference in injection pressure and yet the discs would be the same weight and roughly the same stiffness.

Yes it all ties in. Cooling times, injection pressure and everything.

The pressure is so much higher to withstand the force of the plastic being driven in so much faster.

I just checked my notes: average clamping forces are generally between 2.5-4 tons per square inch of plastic, depending on plastic type and geometry.

 

[araytx]

Whatever they did or didn't do, they did something that has all these people talking about it.

Quadrogy.

Using the other prefix would be Tetralogy ... eh???

using yours would be Quadrilogy.

 

[ChrisWoj]

Whatever they did or didn't do, they did something that has all these people talking about it.




Using the other prefix would be Tetralogy ... eh???

using yours would be Quadrilogy.

I'm quadrogynous.

 

[araytx]

I'm quadrogynous.

at least, Woj... at least!

 

[txmxer]

That you can put in an actual injection press and make good parts? That's infeasible.

For two pieces of steel with a disc shape cavity and core and a nozzle to inject plastic (ie trash panda mold) yes. That I'll buy.

That's not what they are running in the factories though, I guarantee it.

Not to mention, for initial setup, the molds are cheapest part of the equipment.

 

[flatflip]

that's going to be a direct violation of any patent Innova has.

To my knowledge, the only applicable patents are for the bevel-edged flying disc (the eagle patent). Utility patents expire 20 years after the initial application, so it expired in 2003.

Dave D has a few other patents for flying discs, but they look nothing like any of the discs which Jussi will be making.

 

[Lastchancer88]

He has been very candid in the past that he values putting on a show over winning. He's also worked for the last how many years for a disc golf marketing company not a manufacturer.

It's not really a secret that the more discs Simon can sell, the more $ Simon can make. It's in his best interest to be excited and hype the new molds. Not sure what is so pessimistic about that viewpoint/reality.

I call it pessimism because you're saying that one of the most seemingly genuine players in the sport of disc golf is just a marketing stooge pushing DM products for his paycheck. That would be assuming the worst side of the situation. I see Simon as a guy who authentically enjoys throwing discs in all situations. He most likely doesn't see a cut of stock p2 sales. He only hyped 1 of the multitude of new discs that DM came out with over the past year between the EVO and ACTIVE lines. So I'd assume he's not really the guy they go to for videos of every new product. I just disagree with that line of thinking. Is it possible? Sure. But it would be a very negative scenario and that's why it's pessimistic IMO.

 

[ru4por]

Hmmmm....another new disc golf disc company. This one with a strong marketing game, a line of discs very, very close to some reasonably successful molds and likely little chance of churning out discs to meet demand.

I don't really bag much Innova, but it sounds like the real upside is their ability to increase production of stock molds, that have been perennial best selling discs.

 

[sandelius]

discmania pro(s) needs to win championships and majors ASAP with the new plastic and the sales will follow.

Here's a list of DM discs made by Innova and popular discs bolded

P1, P1x, P2, P3, P3x

MD, MD1, MD2, MD3, MD4, MD5

FD, FD2v1, FD2v2, FD2v3, FD3

CD, CD2, CD3

TD, TD2, TDx

PD, PD2, PDx, PD3

DD, DD2, DDx, DD3



7/30

I'm quite sure DM will achieve this hit rate on their own. I'd say their Evolution line discs are doing better already.

 

[elmexdela]

if i was dm i would trim the fat from their line up

and more importantly just make every mold slightly moar os (to sidestep patent violations with innova) and offer p line plastic again so the cyclers can get buck too

its great to make that bulletproof c line plastic but not everyone wants that

 

[elmexdela]

Here's a list of DM discs made by Innova and popular discs bolded

P1, P1x, P2, P3, P3x

MD, MD1, MD2, MD3, MD4, MD5

FD, FD2v1, FD2v2, FD2v3, FD3

CD, CD2, CD3

TD, TD2, TDx

PD, PD2, PDx, PD3

DD, DD2, DDx, DD3



7/30

I'm quite sure DM will achieve this hit rate on their own. I'd say their Evolution line discs are doing better already.

i dont remember the last time ive met someone in the wild throw a dm mid

 

[ChrisWoj]

i dont remember the last time ive met someone in the wild throw a dm mid

The MD3 is really popular around here. I love the thing. I definitely know a good number of people who throw the MD4 and MD. I don't think I've heard anyone I know mention the 2 or 5.

 

[sjberry2017]

That you can put in an actual injection press and make good parts? That's infeasible.

For two pieces of steel with a disc shape cavity and core and a nozzle to inject plastic (ie trash panda mold) yes. That I'll buy.

That's not what they are running in the factories though, I guarantee it.

I mean, that's what he would supply to factories, but ok. Granted, it was an off the cuff conversation and he might need more info, but I don't think discs are as complex. I can concede to your specialized experience though.

 

[ru4por]

I'm not the guy you're replying to, but I think your viewpoint that it is "pessimistic" is due to not having listened to Simon talk about his thoughts on Disc Golf. Go watch them, especially the cbs sports video of the Dynamic Discs Open last year. He says he's there to put on a show and that's more important than winning. He also states (maybe not there) that he is doing well financially. Put those two together and it means he's making good money off of disc sales. While the original poster didn't paint the whole picture (he didn't emphasize that Simon loves pleasing fans and putting on a show), he didn't think he needed to because that part is well known.

That is not what I come up with when I put those two things together. I think disc sales are certainly part of his income portfolio, but I suggest that there are many more revenue streams.

 

[elmexdela]

The MD3 is really popular around here. I love the thing. I definitely know a good number of people who throw the MD4 and MD. I don't think I've heard anyone I know mention the 2 or 5.

you could make up numbers and ask people around here and they would believe you its a disc its so unheard of

 

[ChrisWoj]

you could make up numbers and ask people around here and they would believe you its a disc its so unheard of

Thats how we describe Prodigy stuff around here - "Hey have you thrown the 365 plastic FX7G3?"