Form Critique - Just starting to learn things right

SC would say, "be the lumberjack, not the surgeon." You should not care where exactly the disc goes, just hit it out of the general ballpark. Then you can dial it in.

Pros have done it several thousands of times, it feels totally normal and in control to them like walking or riding a bike. They also most likely learned at much younger age which is advantageous. Feels are also perception so they can not always be relied upon as they are individualistic and can change. Does a child learning to walk or ride a bike look in control? These are skills that must be learned. Knowing something is not the same as understanding it.



Is the can can drill the best feeling approximation of the drive into the plant?

I don't care where the disc goes as long as I throw further. Accuracy can be dialed in later. I don't really accidentally throw far like some people do. So I must be missing something.
 
Is the can can drill the best feeling approximation of the drive into the plant?

I don't care where the disc goes as long as I throw further. Accuracy can be dialed in later. I don't really accidentally throw far like some people do. So I must be missing something.

Not just because SW mentioned it and not just because I had 3 beers:

I accidentally started throwing farther much more often after I first 360, 720, 1080ed with sledgehammer. Odd long wild shots. Couple points 4 u:

It's something about combo of breaking the too-flat aspects of some part of the swing, and if you don't plant and brace better the hammer will fling you rather than you flinging the hammer

This is the aspect of the swing "feel" I work on recovering no matter how much momentum I'm trying to throw with. It's there on the farthest easiest swings, and not when not.

This was the first time that right after a drill I threw a bad shank, but a 20 year vet who has seen it all immediately said, "well that was an awful shot, but when you dial that in to where you're aiming that's pro distance."

I think he was right so I look forward to a drink and sledgehammers. I throw farther more easily. If you want epic freewheeling distance shanks you can dial later, may the hammer force be with you

Can can is great. Keep it up. But I gotta tell you, landing and bracing to throw 10/12 lb sledgehammer changed my entire understanding and feel of the swing, including the bracing and ground impact force transfer. Will it work for you right away? Not sure, but the feel insight and result on power and distance was huge for me.

Admittedly this is a strong buzz, but my body memory is surprisingly lucid right now. Ok time to take out trash hope you get a hammer brotha
 
Not just because SW mentioned it and not just because I had 3 beers:

I accidentally started throwing farther much more often after I first 360, 720, 1080ed with sledgehammer. Odd long wild shots. Couple points 4 u:

It's something about combo of breaking the too-flat aspects of some part of the swing, and if you don't plant and brace better the hammer will fling you rather than you flinging the hammer

This is the aspect of the swing "feel" I work on recovering no matter how much momentum I'm trying to throw with. It's there on the farthest easiest swings, and not when not.

This was the first time that right after a drill I threw a bad shank, but a 20 year vet who has seen it all immediately said, "well that was an awful shot, but when you dial that in to where you're aiming that's pro distance."

I think he was right so I look forward to a drink and sledgehammers. I throw farther more easily. If you want epic freewheeling distance shanks you can dial later, may the hammer force be with you

Can can is great. Keep it up. But I gotta tell you, landing and bracing to throw 10/12 lb sledgehammer changed my entire understanding and feel of the swing, including the bracing and ground impact force transfer. Will it work for you right away? Not sure, but the feel insight and result on power and distance was huge for me.

Admittedly this is a strong buzz, but my body memory is surprisingly lucid right now. Ok time to take out trash hope you get a hammer brotha

While I've got my thinking cap on for sort of an off day. Door frame drill. How close is that feel to the top of the back swing? I think I've discarded it at times because I feel like I'm facing backwards too much when I do it. Does the swing start while your chest is still facing backwards? I played around with the drill with and without a doorframe and it could sort of feel like an invisible tug of war game except your feet are more 90 degrees from your pull line.
 
Been watching some Kristian Kuoksa throws on YouTube. Interested to hear if you want to maintain tautness from the glute to throwing arm throughout the throw? Seems like he tries to do that with his style or throwing with keeping his arm in some sort of frame has he x steps. I think I have a tendency to disconnect pieces as I go through my x step and also not feel the full stretch.
 




Working on fixing the footwork a bit and not turn back too far too early. Still a work in progress. Also trying to reach out wider but I'm still not making it into the pocket. Is there an easy way to cue getting the disc closer to the right pec? It's still getting stuck behind me.
 
I was reluctant to say much since I know you're competing right now, but I do think this will help you fix a few problems at once. I think you are fundamentally leaving much of the potential power out of your core/weight shift/oblique slings on the table lacking side bend in any case.*

1. Nose over toes: Yes. Don't take the head too far. Could be that more "nose over toes" makes you do it automatically in transition, maybe not. Worth a try. Play with it in the drills too with the throwing shoulder backswinging lower than the off arm shoulder.

2. Front hip clear: yes.**



*Practical point: I'm reluctant to give you this advice because I know you've been competing meanwhile, and trying to throw discs straighter and flatter. Notice that if you try to fix this, you are probably going to have trouble with your "straight" angles at first if you commit to this change because it changes the throw axis. All of those pros I picked above were throwing somewhere close to 'straight and flat,' so you can see the side bend is a feature and not a bug. They do tend to have somewhere between 10-20 deg. hyzer depending on the shot power and rely on a bit of flip. On power shots you would be able to pursue your "straight" shots with your -1 turn discs and just change the disc speed. So if you don't like it in the short run and put more value competing, you might back off of it. But I think you're going to have a power limit if you don't fix it in the long run.


**Theoretical + practical point for learning posture & sequence: I've been looking at this a lot again relative to the front hip clear after talking to a couple more coaches. Wiggins' front hip is already starting to power the shot as his foot is hitting the ground. He's got some athletic resistance in that leg as he lands from the toe up, which is exactly synced with his move out of the backswing. It's beautiful. Notice that despite all that force he's bringing in the action is smooth because of how well postured he is. This is one benefit of being athletically balanced in general:

37ad9aaf21f0dcb32e4df9d35b2cdf3b.gif


McBeth's form emphasizes a bit more hip/shoulder separation than Wiggins', which some coaches think might be less efficient and harder on the body if you take it too far. Notice in McBeth's move, he doesn't really seem to start exiting the backswing until after his leading heel is all the way in the "crush", whereas Wiggins' sequence begins exiting the backswing slightly earlier. But fundamentally they are both getting insane ground contact+"posting up" into the front hip clear to lead the swing. I like this angle because you can see why McBeth calls his distance drives "violent" on the body. Watch how much impact and clear his front hip gets, even pushing him "up" hard against the ground. It's possibly "better" to be closer to Wiggins' move from an efficiency perspective, but educational to learn from both and tinker a bit what fits to your body. If you watch McBeth over the years it's clear he has played around with this too.

WSem3Bb.gif


In any case you want to fish around in this space because you still need those oblique slings in the game, which requires some (1) side bend and some leverage for the backswing against the rear leg while shifting forward and (2) getting that sweet ground leverage in posture. FWIW my longest drives are when I connect those two things at this point.
 
I was reluctant to say much since I know you're competing right now, but I do think this will help you fix a few problems at once. I think you are fundamentally leaving much of the potential power out of your core/weight shift/oblique slings on the table lacking side bend in any case.*

1. Nose over toes: Yes. Don't take the head too far. Could be that more "nose over toes" makes you do it automatically in transition, maybe not. Worth a try. Play with it in the drills too with the throwing shoulder backswinging lower than the off arm shoulder.

2. Front hip clear: yes.**



*Practical point: I'm reluctant to give you this advice because I know you've been competing meanwhile, and trying to throw discs straighter and flatter. Notice that if you try to fix this, you are probably going to have trouble with your "straight" angles at first if you commit to this change because it changes the throw axis. All of those pros I picked above were throwing somewhere close to 'straight and flat,' so you can see the side bend is a feature and not a bug. They do tend to have somewhere between 10-20 deg. hyzer depending on the shot power and rely on a bit of flip. On power shots you would be able to pursue your "straight" shots with your -1 turn discs and just change the disc speed. So if you don't like it in the short run and put more value competing, you might back off of it. But I think you're going to have a power limit if you don't fix it in the long run.


**Theoretical + practical point for learning posture & sequence: I've been looking at this a lot again relative to the front hip clear after talking to a couple more coaches. Wiggins' front hip is already starting to power the shot as his foot is hitting the ground. He's got some athletic resistance in that leg as he lands from the toe up, which is exactly synced with his move out of the backswing. It's beautiful. Notice that despite all that force he's bringing in the action is smooth because of how well postured he is. This is one benefit of being athletically balanced in general:

37ad9aaf21f0dcb32e4df9d35b2cdf3b.gif


McBeth's form emphasizes a bit more hip/shoulder separation than Wiggins', which some coaches think might be less efficient and harder on the body if you take it too far. Notice in McBeth's move, he doesn't really seem to start exiting the backswing until after his leading heel is all the way in the "crush", whereas Wiggins' sequence begins exiting the backswing slightly earlier. But fundamentally they are both getting insane ground contact+"posting up" into the front hip clear to lead the swing. I like this angle because you can see why McBeth calls his distance drives "violent" on the body. Watch how much impact and clear his front hip gets, even pushing him "up" hard against the ground. It's possibly "better" to be closer to Wiggins' move from an efficiency perspective, but educational to learn from both and tinker a bit what fits to your body. If you watch McBeth over the years it's clear he has played around with this too.

WSem3Bb.gif


In any case you want to fish around in this space because you still need those oblique slings in the game, which requires some (1) side bend and some leverage for the backswing against the rear leg while shifting forward and (2) getting that sweet ground leverage in posture. FWIW my longest drives are when I connect those two things at this point.
Thanks. I will look into these. I have a month until next tournament so I have some time to change things up. So feel free to fire away.
 
Playing around indoors with posture and stuff, I think I've noticed that I don't really coil into the rear side even when I thought I was. I've realized that I need to put pressure vertically into the ground in my rear leg instead of just trying to rotate against it. Also I think my upper body needs to move back at the same time as the hip moving back. For some reason, I have a tendency to disconnect a lot of my muscles during the throw. I still don't feel like I get a lot of pressure on the plant foot though. Just sort of feels like it lands and then my front hip clears. It's weird because I can jump on my plant leg but when I actually try to swing with it I don't get the full "drop" effect.
 
What do the courses around you demand?
We have a mix of courses around here ranging from open bomber courses and wooded technical courses and a lot of in between. Most holes around 300ft. It would be nice to throw mids up to 350+ to reach most holes. Distance isn't really about throwing farther but throwing with less power with slower discs. That's the real advantage during tournaments. Also, it would be nice to birdie some holes on longer courses.
 
Playing around indoors with posture and stuff, I think I've noticed that I don't really coil into the rear side even when I thought I was. I've realized that I need to put pressure vertically into the ground in my rear leg instead of just trying to rotate against it. Also I think my upper body needs to move back at the same time as the hip moving back. For some reason, I have a tendency to disconnect a lot of my muscles during the throw. I still don't feel like I get a lot of pressure on the plant foot though. Just sort of feels like it lands and then my front hip clears. It's weird because I can jump on my plant leg but when I actually try to swing with it I don't get the full "drop" effect.
This makes a lot of sense to me based on what I see. I think if you don't get the rear leg working like that, it's harder for the front leg to work correctly too. Also part of why your rear leg doesn't want to counterbalance in behind you, and part of why you're having trouble getting the throwing shoulder lower than the rear shoulder.

It helped me a lot to "throw more like a lumberjack than a surgeon" when working on this part like SW said somewhere above. I really had to get my rear leg to be much more athletic and involved in the backswing like you're saying. IMO it's actually doing a lot of work in the backswing in a power drive - it just might not look like it in tippy top form because their balance and coordination is so good already.

Now ask yourself: would you rather have Bryce Harper's move, or Griffey Jr's (this is not intended as a vertical/horizontal thought exercise, but a drive leg loading & move & balance one).

AncientDeafeningCopperbutterfly-max-1mb.gif
EndlessGriffeySwing.gif
 
We have a mix of courses around here ranging from open bomber courses and wooded technical courses and a lot of in between. Most holes around 300ft. It would be nice to throw mids up to 350+ to reach most holes. Distance isn't really about throwing farther but throwing with less power with slower discs. That's the real advantage during tournaments. Also, it would be nice to birdie some holes on longer courses.

What are your mids again?
 
This makes a lot of sense to me based on what I see. I think if you don't get the rear leg working like that, it's harder for the front leg to work correctly too. Also part of why your rear leg doesn't want to counterbalance in behind you, and part of why you're having trouble getting the throwing shoulder lower than the rear shoulder.

It helped me a lot to "throw more like a lumberjack than a surgeon" when working on this part like SW said somewhere above. I really had to get my rear leg to be much more athletic and involved in the backswing like you're saying. IMO it's actually doing a lot of work in the backswing in a power drive - it just might not look like it in tippy top form because their balance and coordination is so good already.

Now ask yourself: would you rather have Bryce Harper's move, or Griffey Jr's (this is not intended as a vertical/horizontal thought exercise, but a drive leg loading & move & balance one).

AncientDeafeningCopperbutterfly-max-1mb.gif
EndlessGriffeySwing.gif
Interesting. Is the baseball thing a trick question? Griffey looks more smooth and effortless while Harper looks more powerful and athletic. But I think they both hit hard. Doesn't look like Griffey is loading as much.

I think my troubles with the lead shoulder is based on pulling because I'm trying to get the disc ahead of the body instead of getting it stuck behind my chest. I don't know if many people have fully expanded on getting the disc from the tip of the reachback to the power pocket or the timing involved to do that. Seems very complicated to me and I haven't found the way of getting it there smoothly and effortlessly. You know from past form reviews that there's rounding and the disc getting stuck behind. Some of it is due to slack in the chain but when I try to keep things taut I still feel like it gets left behind instead of shooting forward to the front pec.
 

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