Forward Fade

[DG_Before_Breakfast]

Some discs fade harder when they slow down than others. I think I've heard this called "Low speed stability"?

Like my Buzzz holds a great straight line for most of its flight, but once it is out of speed, it fades pretty hard. I gotta keep it low, or put some any on it, or a lot of snap and get a some turn, to make it not go hard left at the end. But I used to have a Warship that would still go pretty straight for a while after it lost speed.

This gets critical for long tunnel shots. Need something that holds a line, even when it slows down. I've never really figured that out to be honest. I'd love to hyzer flip a low stability disc, have it flip up and go straight, and not fade much at the end cuz it is understable, but that takes some serious control of your hyzer flip. So I tend to just to just take my most controllable disc - the Buzzz, and throw it straight and low. Ya, I might need two shots to get through the tunnel, but often that is better than the outcome of one missed hyzer flip

 

[Jukeshoe]

Penetrating and dumping..... Hmmm.... I guess you can't do one while the other is occurring

:hfive:

 

[Lewis]

The first driver that struck me as a "forward penetrating" disc, even when it's fading, is the Katana. The difference between its performance while fading and other drivers I'd used was visibly obvious from the first few throws, and the phrase "penetrating forward" was exactly what came to mind at the time. I also like the word "dump" as an antonym of "penetrate forward". :thmbup:

 

[runningDoc]

I had never heard the term "forward fade" until I used it myself the first time I threw a PD.

I've had PD's (specifically C-PDs) where I've thrown accidentally low, and its skipped 100ft in front of me, then skiiiipppped, then skiiiippped, and skipped again then faded/skipped past the pin.

Also I've throws with C-PDs where I shanked it way wide, and it started fading and I thought to myself: "at least its coming back to the fairway/pin" and it ends up fading then skipping and landing in the circle 20ft from the basket.

so yeah, if you want to experience forward fade try a friends PD.

 

[Shamis]

low speed stability

 

[Dan Ensor]

For me to describe it as a "forward penetrating fade" it has to penetrate forward better than other discs that fade back as reliably. So a Tern is more forward penetrating than a Nuke OS, but I wouldn't use "forward fade" to describe the difference. I would describe a Hurricane as forward penetrating compared to a Force because they fade at about the same time, and fade with authority, but the Hurricane gets more distance out of that fade.

The best disc to describe it, that I've thrown, is the Cyclone.

 

[Jenga54]

It's just marketing. New players want to throw high speed drivers, and experience hard fade at less that ideal throwing speeds. If they see a disc that is "designed" to fade forward instead of hard left at the end, you'll buy it. I mean, it FADES FORWARD! that's what I want!

 

[Lewis]

The best disc to describe it, that I've thrown, is the Cyclone.

Aha! That's what I need to add back to my bag! I'd forgotten how much I like Cyclones. But not the Elite-Z Cyclone. For some odd reason, Z Cyclones are dumpy.

 

[Monkeypaws]

Definitely. It's possible for a disc to technically start going backwards. You just have to throw it nose up enough.

Most discs penetrate forward during the fade at the end of it's flight. Some do it more than others.

Isn't that just degree of fade?

Discs with higher fade ratings would have less forward penetrating fade?

 

[Lewis]

Definitely. It's possible for a disc to technically start going backwards. You just have to throw it nose up enough.

Most discs penetrate forward during the fade at the end of it's flight. Some do it more than others.

Isn't that just degree of fade?

Discs with higher fade ratings would have less forward penetrating fade?

In cases where the disc starts moving backwards, it's due to a nose up angle of attack, not fade. Overstability or a headwind can make the retrogression worse when you throw a disc nose up, but I don't know of any disc that's so overstable that it will turn itself past 90° before it hits the ground when you throw it flat in calm air.

 

[Doofenshmirtz]

In cases where the disc starts moving backwards, it's due to a nose up angle of attack, not fade.

Well, fade is caused by a nose-up angle of attack. I think what you are describing isn't the angle of attack so much as a disc that is thrown on an upward path.

Overstability or a headwind can make the retrogression worse when you throw a disc nose up, but I don't know of any disc that's so overstable that it will turn itself past 90° before it hits the ground when you throw it flat in calm air.

I think you are right on this. I don't think any disc fades more than 90° when thrown flat over flat ground in calm air.

 

[ZAMson]

It's just marketing. New players want to throw high speed drivers, and experience hard fade at less that ideal throwing speeds. If they see a disc that is "designed" to fade forward instead of hard left at the end, you'll buy it. I mean, it FADES FORWARD! that's what I want!

Maybe this isn't another dig at MVP but I'll say it all anyway, since it's such a favored criticism around here about our marketing. My flight charts pretty clearly show that low-powered players don't get much forward fade, or at least greatly diminished.

Personally I think marketing can be a pretty slimy trick to deceive people, so I try to make things helpful and descriptive. My marketing education is limited to helping folks in a pro shop, with a driving range right outside. No amount of BS or hyping up is gonna make their experience better, they're gonna go throw it right there and have a reaction to the flight whether positive or negative. With helpful honest info I could send them off with the absolute best model for them. So in my MVP marketing I give information that helps players make a decision on a good disc for them. Saving people money and avoiding regrettable purchases with information is important to me. It actually hurts my feelings that people think MVP relies on slick marketing or deception. My descriptions tell you how they relate to points of reference, how they react for different skill levels, and key words that might inform the player of whether they'd jive with the disc or not. I try to avoid embellishments or claims of the bonus 50ft, while still not producing the blandest text possible. It makes me happy when someone can look at my marketing of a new product and say "that's not for me, I'll skip this one". I saved them money! I want people to be happy with every purchase, just like in the pro shop where you're looking people in the eye, knowing they have limited funds, and they're using some of it to bring joy to their life, and trusting me for guidance. Happy customers are repeat customers, and there are so many good options that nobody should leave disappointed. Truth and transparency go a long way in marketing. Or maybe I'm doing it wrong, I've never studied marketing.

As abrasive as I can be personally, my marketing practices are based on honesty and treating players with respect. It's sad to me that my work efforts are mistaken for the opposite. If anyone can tell me how to better convey my intent in my DG marketing or make MVP's information clearer, I'm all ears.

Sorry to interrupt the regular flight discussion

 

[The Hammer]

Happy customers are repeat customers, and there are so many good options that nobody should leave disappointed. Truth and transparency go a long way in marketing.

So much truth to this. I wish all companies had this philosophy. :thmbup:

 

[art_vandelay]

I think that as long as some people can benefit from the technology (I suppose this is the main point of contention?) and some can't because of a lack of power or skill or whatever, you're going to get some of the back and forth chatter that you see. People are going to say that the technology does not really exist, because it's so much easier on the ego to blame the disc rather than the person who threw it. There are plenty of discs out there that I can't get to perform as advertised. When that happens, I move on to discs that I can work with.

There are some discs in the MVP line up that I can't throw well (I'm looking at you Mr. Shock). But that doesn't make me love my Ion any less. I don't care really why my Ion performs for me, I just know that it does. Is it gyro? Don't care.

 

[ODRB]

Teebird vs Eagle. PD vs OLF or Orc.

 

[davmer2303]

The forward fade DOES exist. the PD absolutlely does have it, and the MVP tensor was my other example. It's rare that an overstable disc just rounds a corner and keeps flying like that one.

 

[Three Putt]

The first time I remember somebody talking about "forward fade" we were talking about Cyclones. It was '95ish? I don't think Discraft made that up; Hell, disc golf companies didn't even market back then. It was a term that players were using to describe how the flight of the Cyclone was different from the flight of a Viper (the ubiquitous driver of the day.) Companies might be using it in marketing today, but they didn't make the term up.

 

[Aim For The Chains]

The first time I remember somebody talking about "forward fade" we were talking about Cyclones. It was '95ish? I don't think Discraft made that up; Hell, disc golf companies didn't even market back then. It was a term that players were using to describe how the flight of the Cyclone was different from the flight of a Viper (the ubiquitous driver of the day.) Companies might be using it in marketing today, but they didn't make the term up.

:hfive:opcorn: damn my beat to hell DX viper flew with some mean FW fade and HSS tho'

 

[Three Putt]

:hfive:opcorn: damn my beat to hell DX viper flew with some mean FW fade and HSS tho'

That has always been the key to good cycling discs; those discs where you can beat the LSS out of it long before you beat the HSS out of it. Anytime you get to that point you get forward fade. People just don't seem to cycle anymore; the disc has to fly like you want it to fly out of the box.

 

[Lewis]

Well, fade is caused by a nose-up angle of attack. I think what you are describing isn't the angle of attack so much as a disc that is thrown on an upward path.

Ah yes, that's right. I was confusing pitch relative to the ground with angle of attack relative to the direction of travel (or wind). When a disc stalls in the air with its nose up, though, it starts coming back towards the thrower because of the angle of the flight plate relative to the force of gravity, which I'd consider its angle of attack at the moment it stalls.