Grip Questions

[JR]

that's why I post. I might make sense to someone out there

Me too. I've gotten so much help from here that I feel it's my duty to give something back. It doesn't matter if only person beefits from my experiences or gets an idea of their own as long as everyone benefits.

 

[daniebl2]

All,
After a breif feild practice session...I had the best results with the thumb pressure down and pushing twards the otter rim of the disc. I even dare to say I saw an increase in distance. I'll be playing on Sunday, so I'll report back then with more details.

 

[JR]

Doh! I can't draw too far reaching conclusion about this day because my knee and hips twisted in various ways they shouldn't have. The grip I detailed earlier gave me more annies than I wanted :-( Meaning too often withou trying to get them. So there's probably some off axis torque resulting from the grip. I tried to vary positions of each finger to the corner of the rim and wing and to the wing. I also changed the positions of my middle and ring fingers. To no avail. Luckily these problems didn't occur on approaches. But it seems that for drives with Wizards this modified fan grip needs more practice or initial hyzer or keeping with the power grip.

 

[JR]

dgdave you must have thick skin in your fingers. Or you don't grip as hard as I did. Ouch! As I suspected gripping under the rim gets painful quickly. I got mild pain by gripping hard without throwing. Yuck. Throwing hard didn't help either

 

[JR]

All,
After a breif feild practice session...I had the best results with the thumb pressure down and pushing twards the otter rim of the disc. I even dare to say I saw an increase in distance. I'll be playing on Sunday, so I'll report back then with more details.

I had tried that a long time ago. I tried it again today and remembered why I don't need to bother. It just doesn't do anything for me. But the results might very well be masked by my wrist raising from initial wrist down position as I reach the rip point.

 

[BenKrishman]

Just watched that climo grip video, I'm going to have to try this out and see how it feels.

Anyone else find it funny that climo was using a buzzz for this clinic? :lol:

 

[Star Shark]

It's not that Climo was using a Buzz. He was showing a guy how to grip and just used that guy's disc.

 

[dgdave]

Yeah, I have a few calluses. find that climo video. that's where I learned this grip and at first I got a LOT of turnovers because I wasn't used to this much nose down and I had to reposition my to stop from it rolling. now I have a lot more control on it if I keep my wrist locked down.

 

[daniebl2]

After a little playing today...here is my conclusion. And a couple improvements I've made.

Pushing down with the thumb and directed pressure twards the outer rim causes the wrist to open up and helps maintain a wrist down orientation during the pivot.

Also,
I noticed today that my lock point does not come off clean with the standard fork grip.....my middle finger seems to catch. I think I've found a possible solution. If I remove the pinky finger and double up ring finger and middle finger they seem to come off together and clean. I haven't had a chance to try this yet, but I'm hopefull.

Has anyone experimented with this style fork grip before or does anyone use this currently?

 

[Timko]

I think that style of grip is mentioned in the grip article on this site.

As far as the fork grip goes, it take a lot of work until you're able to feel comfortable. I was shown this grip by Aleksey Bubis (who was shown it by Climo). He told me it would feel weird at first, and I should slow down my throw to really feel where the hit takes place. That way, when you get back to your normal speed, you've got a lot of accurate distance. Of course, Boobs can throw Teebirds 500+, but I think that's got less to do with the grip and more to do with the fact that he's a hoss. But back to the grip...I was doing a lot of throwing over the weekend, and feel that the fork grip allows for a super clean release because your grip point rips off the disc right before your rip point without any other fingers getting in the way. I know Climo makes note of that in the video, and I totally agree with it. Now I never spent a lot of time throwing power grips; Aleksey showed me the fork grip within 3 weeks of switching from forehand to backhand, but I feel I get plenty of distance from that grip. And more importantly, I normally know where it's going.

 

[daniebl2]

I've been throwing with the fork grip for about 1.5 years now....I just never noticed that the disc pivot wasn't clean. I mean I've had people comment that I have little bit of disc flutter but I was always associating it with off-axis torque.

I have another question with regards to the Rip point. I've just noticed that I can't maintain the same wrist down orientation from the curled position through to fully opened. I can maintain the same orientation upto the point where the wrist is in-line with the forearm....after that...opening the wrist any further will cause the outer edge of the disc to raise. I was always under the impression that the wrist should open up....is this correct?

 

[JR]

Yeah, I have a few calluses. find that climo video. that's where I learned this grip and at first I got a LOT of turnovers because I wasn't used to this much nose down and I had to reposition my to stop from it rolling. now I have a lot more control on it if I keep my wrist locked down.

When you say stop do you mean the point where you stop the wrist motion to handshaking position? Did you stop earlier to make the annies go away?

My trouble is that I can't keep my wrist down to the rip point even though I can have the disc way more down than in line with the forearm initially. I got so mad about this because I realized It's robbing distance for me. I thought that since I can't anyway keep my wrist down I might as well raise my arm speed by keeping the disc in line with my forearm close to the rip keeping the muscles looser and in the end try to force the wrist down. At best I got flat releases and too often slight nose up. Some of the problems were due to the timing of the forcing of the wrist down near the rip. I'm not amused. So I don't have troubles with a lot of nose down because I can't make that happen. I am weight forward and mostly don't raise the hand elevation through the throw. It's all in the wrist in my case.

I can't figure out how to keep the wrist down. It's nasty that even with the less straining disc in line with the forearm the wrist tends to rise before the rip. That's the biggest hindrance to trying to learn to snap with hard throws. And it is by itself a definite distance robber. Meh.

 

[JR]

Pushing down with the thumb and directed pressure twards the outer rim causes the wrist to open up and helps maintain a wrist down orientation during the pivot.

Also,
I noticed today that my lock point does not come off clean with the standard fork grip.....my middle finger seems to catch. I think I've found a possible solution. If I remove the pinky finger and double up ring finger and middle finger they seem to come off together and clean. I haven't had a chance to try this yet, but I'm hopefull.

I'm desperate to try to get my wrist down so I've gotta try learning a fork grip. I've already have ideas thanks to dgdave I just need to practice more since annying is easy but controllable according to him.

I think you have hit the nail on the head with your thumb idea if you mean that for a RHBH throw you keep the thumb pointed forward towards the target at the rip and at that point the direction of the pressure of the thumb is to the right instead of forward. Then I have more wrist down to the end of the wrist extension while sitting in my chair. Thank you very much sir! You've saved my day. I'll see if I can repeat this with actual throws too. I had no luck whatsoever trying to push with the thumb forward or down against my index finger or both simultaneously. Pushing to the right helps tremendously sitting down. I'm crossing fingers that it also does help with actual throws.

I'm not sure if the thumb has much of an effect on the wrist opening.

Where do you put the pinky? For me it seemed to be equally easy with a Wizard to curl it to my palm compared to keeping the pinky on the corner of the rim and the wing. To me it seemed to be easiest to separate the middle and ring fingers. I got a sturdier sideways control of the disc and better initial position. I think that I need to grow thicker skin on my fingers before I can try to keep more fingers on the corner of the rim and wing like dgdave related what Scott Stokely has taught. In the meantime I need to see again the Climo video and try out different versions of the fork grip. I just had no luck with the pinky on the rim. I never got clean releases. My drivers fluttered and sometimes annied due to the unclean release.

Edit: Double oops! It hought that this video was another earlier Climo instructional video on grip. http://youtube.com/watch?v=vAV8kKURKaw
I also wrote incorrectly in the last paragraph because I wasn't talking about a fork grip but a variation of the fan grip. I'm too tired. Excuse me.

 

[Timko]

I was going to post this on Saturday, but time from me...

I was experimenting with the thumb orientation stuff, and found that pushing down with the thumb helped with the nose down trajectory. Furthermore, the "snapping" of the thumb to the right (while still pushing down) was allowing me to throw some bomb hyzer flips, and to throw some very stable (spirits) quite straight from a wing flat orientation.

 

[daniebl2]

I just got from some more practice today.

I was trying the modified fork grip and thumb orientation.

I agree with your results Furthur, as I got the exact same results.

Also,
The modified fork grip is working wonderfully for me. I did check the grips article and my version is not shown. - It's basicaly the fork grip, but with the pinky tucked into the hand and under the disc....the ring finger is at the bottom against the rim of the disc with the middle finger stacked on top......no flutter what so ever. The only bad thing is that I find my self switching back when throwing my putters...maybe I'm just not used to it yet?

Also,
I really got a hold of one....it's the first time I've ever had a disc abruptly flip @ 275 ft...I was amazed....I knew this throw had some stink on it, but man was it cooking...and then, whack! I mighty oak reached out and grabbed it, I swear the branch moved down 2 feet just to grab my disc. I was soooo mad. - I expect the throw was around 425. I'm normally throw approximatly 350.
Anyways, I'm going out again tomorrow after work, maybe then...maybe then.

 

[JR]

I just got from some more practice today.

I was trying the modified fork grip and thumb orientation.

I agree with your results Furthur, as I got the exact same results.

Also,
The modified fork grip is working wonderfully for me. I did check the grips article and my version is not shown. - It's basicaly the fork grip, but with the pinky tucked into the hand and under the disc....the ring finger is at the bottom against the rim of the disc with the middle finger stacked on top......no flutter what so ever. The only bad thing is that I find my self switching back when throwing my putters...maybe I'm just not used to it yet?

Also,
I really got a hold of one....it's the first time I've ever had a disc abruptly flip @ 275 ft...I was amazed....I knew this throw had some stink on it, but man was it cooking...and then, whack! I mighty oak reached out and grabbed it, I swear the branch moved down 2 feet just to grab my disc. I was soooo mad. - I expect the throw was around 425. I'm normally throw approximatly 350.
Anyways, I'm going out again tomorrow after work, maybe then...maybe then.

Furthur and danielb2: All I can say is congratulations and thanks for bringing proof to the table about the thumb part. Can't wait to try it

IIRC I used the exact grip you used danielb2 and it was making callouses on the right side of the tip of my ring finger.

 

[black udder]

For what it's worth...

I tried using the Climo grip and it just wasn't good for me. I guess I don't push down hard enough with my index finger, so the discs kept coming out a tad early. The lines weren't bad, but I didn't get the distance or feel of a solid throw.

What I did was move to the birdie grip. This helps me in two ways. It allows me the strong grip of the power grip and also prevents me from ripping off the middle finger. Again, because I have a tendency to weaken my index finger grip at times, I would rip off the middle finger which would a) Hurt my middle finger (by torquing it) and b) would change the flight slightly.

I can get the same power with the birdie grip and some people get better control with it.

Not that it's better or worse, but for now at least, it's resolved a couple of my problems.

In addition, I was gripping the disc good and firm in the back swing and pulling throw with it good and tight. I've since then modified it to be really loose and tighten the grip as I flick/snap my wrist right before the release.

Right now aim and lines are pretty terrible, but you can certainly feel the power and potential of the throw. I'm inclined to believe that I now know what I have to do to reach my potential distance - I just need to actually learn how to do it consistently.

 

[daniebl2]

Just got back from some more practice.....and it was very good but not great. I've managed to pick up 25-30 ft...which brings me solidly into the next plataeu (375-385) if I'm not mistaken.
Still...not an ounce of flutter, even throwing a 168 Kite at full force. I even started throwing my putters (avairs) with very good accuracy...so I quess what I'm saying is the grip is a keeper at least for me, and I would encourage others to try it...especially if you have small hands.
However, I'm still a little disappointed, as I thought I had found the Holy Grail....which would have gotten my to the majic 425 and up range.....baby steps I guess.

 

[JR]

Just got back from some more practice.....and it was very good but not great. I've managed to pick up 25-30 ft...which brings me solidly into the next plataeu (375-385) if I'm not mistaken.
Still...not an ounce of flutter, even throwing a 168 Kite at full force. I even started throwing my putters (avairs) with very good accuracy...so I quess what I'm saying is the grip is a keeper at least for me, and I would encourage others to try it...especially if you have small hands.
However, I'm still a little disappointed, as I thought I had found the Holy Grail....which would have gotten my to the majic 425 and up range.....baby steps I guess.

That kind of immediate jump in distance is always wonderful. As long as you can keep it. That kind of drive distance allows for doing well in the open division if the drives are accurate and you have a complete game. I don't know when Climo said that accurate 350' drives allow you to compete against anyone. Disc technology has advanced but your distance is very respectable. Not everyone gets there.

How much nose down do the discs have when they are flat in the air? How high are the discs at their highest with which discs? Maybe you can gain more distance by changing flight lines now that your form and maybe power has changed.

I detailed the grip I used today in the post I wrote today at http://www.discgolfreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4277
I did not reach nearly the kinds of distances I have but the wind was terrible and I didn't hit good lines and am recuperating from flu and slept 3 hours too litlle. I was messing with most parts of my form changing most things to see differences.

In the end the lack of D probably comes down to getting the lines right and the lack of sharp acceleration near the hit. I tried to accelerate late but either I was too fast in the arm speed already or controlling previous parts of my form took my attention and didn't allow for good elbow chopping. Or the grip simply is shorter than my previous power grip that doesn't use thumb as aggressively. It's way too early to tell. I need a lot more tries to have a meaningful comparison. Without the wind. I can't say how much distance difference there is because the temps are lower than during the summer. Maybe the rain did something too. I had some partial slippages that I noticed.

 

[JR]

Although I had a bit of advancement today with keeping the wrist down till the rip I'm not satisfied because I'm not near the best players in the nose down angle I get. This is with more conventional grips.

I came up with a possible solution. I've already thrown today and gotta rest. I'll post results after I get the chance to try this one out. This grip I came up with may be old news but I don't remember reading about it.

How would you like a grip that keeps your muscles very loose even with dozens of degrees of hyzer or anhyzer should you want to create OAT that way? Add to that plenty of nose down angle simultaneously with loose muscles. Appetizing?

Stand up straight and relax. Look down at your hand. That is your loosest position in the muscles in the arm. I tried to come up with a way that deviates as little as possible from this relaxed position. Here's what I did: I raised my arm to front parallel to the ground and rotated my arm counterclockwise so that the palm was facing ground and the thumb points to the left. I pushed a Teerex into my hand from the front trying to keep my fingers and wrist in the relaxed position. I pushed the rim to the base of the thumb as close to the thumb as possible for keeping the nose down by having as tight a grip as possible between the thumb and the base of the index finger with muscles still quite loose. I put my thumb under the disc and grabbed the rim. This might be easiest with wide rimmed drivers. I don't know. I spread the rest of the fingers on top of the disc and straightened the middle joints so that the fingers touch the top of the disc with their whole bottom area. Adjust the spread of the top fingers for sturdiest grip and find out how your thumb gets the tightest grip of the rim. I don't know if having the thumb straight under the flight plate would give a cleaner release or looser grip with decreased distance. Experiment.

Check how loose the muscles are all through the throw even with huge twists sideways from the wrist and nose down angles with bending the wrist down. Nose down angle shouldn't be a problem because now the wrist is bending down along the primary axis of motion for the wrist instead of side to side in the secondary axis. If one prioritizes the axis by range of motion. I can get 60 degrees of nose down with loose muscles in the rip position. Sounds sexy doesn't it?

The snags in this grip that I've found out so far are initially difficulty in keeping the angles accurate. That's because here my usual limberness comes into play. This way around my muscles are loose and travel a lot with minimal resistance so guiding the hand all through the throwing motion keeping all the angles right might take a while to learn. Success depends on the thumb I presume. Release and holding on to the disc makes or breaks this technique. Snapping happens with side to side motion which might kill the usefulness of this grip for maximum distances. On the other hand for those that can't keep the wrist down enough this could at least help to see how flight lines change with proper angles even when throwing high. No stalls and straighter flights. Takers?

Please share your experiences. I hope this isn't unhealthy. Try this at your own risk.