Help Finding Discs in Tournaments

[Karl]

Fair comment but triggering you is more fun.

Fun is good...and fair!

 

[Karl]

IMO stroke and distance for lost disc without stroke and distance for OB (or anything else) is disproportionate.

Obviously golf has OB and lost ball penalties as the same. I haven't thought enough about it to say what side of the fence I'm on regarding disc golf. But thinking out loud, that we're (in a 'lost ball/disc' situation) losing a more expensive item shouldn't make any difference. It's a case of 1) how much should a player be penalized for 'being out of control and 2) should that case be "the same" as plopping your flight implement in a BAD spot. Golf has made a decision that they're "equal(ly) bad". What's the argument that they're not?
But in the end, the player ALWAYS has the disc in their control on the tee and anything that happens afterwards is a result of the player's action(s). If they throw it "too far" - to lose it or go OB - that's on them. Maybe not too fun, etc., but 100% their doing.

 

[txmxer]

Obviously golf has OB and lost ball penalties as the same. I haven't thought enough about it to say what side of the fence I'm on regarding disc golf. But thinking out loud, that we're (in a 'lost ball/disc' situation) losing a more expensive item shouldn't make any difference. It's a case of 1) how much should a player be penalized for 'being out of control and 2) should that case be "the same" as plopping your flight implement in a BAD spot. Golf has made a decision that they're "equal(ly) bad". What's the argument that they're not?
But in the end, the player ALWAYS has the disc in their control on the tee and anything that happens afterwards is a result of the player's action(s). If they throw it "too far" - to lose it or go OB - that's on them. Maybe not too fun, etc., but 100% their doing.

you make a good point.

But, your own counterpoint isn't bad...no reason DG can't consider the economic impact of a rule.

I think economics was one reason the range finders weren't allowed in the past wasn't it? I personally think they shouldn't be allowed in competition now either--but, I don't make rules. I just make opinions.

 

[BillFleming]

I prefer the rule the way it is now, rethrow from previous lie with a penalty. But for the sake of discussion, how about a lost disc drop zone? Half way up the fairway or wherever the TD sees fit. Par 4s, maybe 2 drop zones, one for lost disc off the tee and another for other shots.

The issue I see with a 'lost disc drop zone' is that it can be taken advantage of - especially by not-so-good players.

Imagine, if you will, a 600 foot hole with a 'lost disc drop zone' at 300 feet. There's no way I can throw 300 feet (heck, I have trouble with getting past 200 feet). So, what do I do? Grab a 'throw away' disc from my bag...heave it way into the woods (or water)...lost disc...now I go to the drop zone for a gain of an extra 100 feet or so distance.

I'd even be happy to take the stroke penalty. I'm throwing three from 300 feet, instead of two from 200 feet (or even throwing three back from the tee pad).

 

[BillFleming]

Obviously golf has OB and lost ball penalties as the same. I haven't thought enough about it to say what side of the fence I'm on regarding disc golf. But thinking out loud, that we're (in a 'lost ball/disc' situation) losing a more expensive item shouldn't make any difference. It's a case of 1) how much should a player be penalized for 'being out of control and 2) should that case be "the same" as plopping your flight implement in a BAD spot. Golf has made a decision that they're "equal(ly) bad". What's the argument that they're not?
But in the end, the player ALWAYS has the disc in their control on the tee and anything that happens afterwards is a result of the player's action(s). If they throw it "too far" - to lose it or go OB - that's on them. Maybe not too fun, etc., but 100% their doing.

I didn't create the rule and wasn't around when it was decided upon so I don't know the facts of it; but I believe the reason the ball golf OB rule is to stroke and distance is due to the distance a golf ball travels. The card can rarely tell WHERE the ball went out of bounds, so it would be difficult if not impossible to determine where to take the lie at. Disc golf distances are shorter and the disc is larger than a golf ball, so it is easier to determine where it went out of bounds.

 

[Cgkdisc]

The issue I see with a 'lost disc drop zone' is that it can be taken advantage of - especially by not-so-good players.

Imagine, if you will, a 600 foot hole with a 'lost disc drop zone' at 300 feet. There's no way I can throw 300 feet (heck, I have trouble with getting past 200 feet). So, what do I do? Grab a 'throw away' disc from my bag...heave it way into the woods (or water)...lost disc...now I go to the drop zone for a gain of an extra 100 feet or so distance.

I'd even be happy to take the stroke penalty. I'm throwing three from 300 feet, instead of two from 200 feet (or even throwing three back from the tee pad).

It's not an advantage to take a penalty and go to a drop zone that's farther ahead than you can throw. This scenario is done in several cases where a water carry is involved. At the IDGC, you can choose to move forward to the red tee on the six water holes of Steady Ed course and be throwing your third shot, not only so you don't have to cross the water but because some players can't throw that far in the first place.

 

[biscoe]

But in the end, the player ALWAYS has the disc in their control on the tee and anything that happens afterwards is a result of the player's action(s). If they throw it "too far" - to lose it or go OB - that's on them. Maybe not too fun, etc., but 100% their doing.

I disagree. There are many instances where perfectly good shots can be lost- you live in the Northeast and play in the woods this time of year, I don't think this is news to you.

 

[DiscJunkie]

Not sure if anyone has considered this, because I have not gone through the entire thread.

I would love to see video evidence allowed.
The argument has always been that it disadvantages the filmed groups.
However, this could be used as a counter point, that the filmed groups have an advantage (regarding potential lost discs) because of catch-cams and spectators.

Just thinking out loud...

 

[BillFleming]

Not sure if anyone has considered this, because I have not gone through the entire thread.

I would love to see video evidence allowed.
The argument has always been that it disadvantages the filmed groups.
However, this could be used as a counter point, that the filmed groups have an advantage (regarding potential lost discs) because of catch-cams and spectators.

Just thinking out loud...

I never quite understood the 'no photo/video evidence allowed' rule. It may have been made prior to the abundance of smartphones. But I have seen places where it would have really come in handy. A disc near a mando that some card-mates think missed the mando and others think is short of the mando. Discs in water, but maybe not completely. A photo/video would make it easier for the TD to make a ruling after the round.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Photos and videos were not allowed because the game was designed around the thrower and the group making every call from a sportsmanship perspective (like ball golf) and they now have to be officials for a reason. I am for allowing video/photo evidence for some situations. For example, it could be used to clarify what location in the photo was the OB area (if at all) but not for the TD to actually make line calls from looking at the photo.

Video wouldn't be used for making jump putt or foot fault calls. Those should still have to be real time calls made by the group, so video would be meaningless for that. Video might be useful for filming potential disciplinary situations where players get out-of-hand verbally or physically, or for confirming the number of throws a player made on the hole in case there's a scoring dispute. But then the group should be allowed to resolve that by looking at the video without bringing in the TD.

 

[Agricolae]

The issue I see with a 'lost disc drop zone' is that it can be taken advantage of - especially by not-so-good players.

Imagine, if you will, a 600 foot hole with a 'lost disc drop zone' at 300 feet. There's no way I can throw 300 feet (heck, I have trouble with getting past 200 feet). So, what do I do? Grab a 'throw away' disc from my bag...heave it way into the woods (or water)...lost disc...now I go to the drop zone for a gain of an extra 100 feet or so distance.

Bill, your disc is not lost until *we* can't find it. If we are playing for money, or any competitive round, I will look hard for the disc that you've 'heaved way into the woods'. When I find it, you play from there.

 

[Karl]

I disagree. There are many instances where perfectly good shots can be lost- you live in the Northeast and play in the woods this time of year, I don't think this is news to you.

I'll most always start (my thinking) from a position of "theoretical" and work, usually toward "practical" (sometimes other aspects), from there. And thus my "...maybe not too fun, etc.". But I COULD play a round and never lose a disc...just "putt" (80' max) my way around a course. Yes, no fun...but no lost disc! ANYTHING more than that IS a risk...one that, to have a sport/game/fun, you MUST take. And if you succumb - which we all do - that's part of the game.

Now, since lost balls and lost discs basically come in two varieties: sucky shots and really unlucky, the question is how do we 'penalize' (if at all) this ONE situation...since there is no way of determining which (of the two) any one case might be.

 

[BillFleming]

Photos and videos were not allowed because the game was designed around the thrower and the group making every call from a sportsmanship perspective (like ball golf) and they now have to be officials for a reason. I am for allowing video/photo evidence for some situations. For example, it could be used to clarify what location in the photo was the OB area (if at all) but not for the TD to actually make line calls from looking at the photo.

If the group can't come to a consensus, the final decision is with the TD. I was a volunteer for a tournament where the card couldn't make a decision (had to do with a mando) and the player played a provisional; so after the round, the group asked the TD for a ruling....it was difficult to explain the situation and a photo would really have helped.

 

[Cgkdisc]

If the group can't come to a consensus, the final decision is with the TD. I was a volunteer for a tournament where the card couldn't make a decision (had to do with a mando) and the player played a provisional; so after the round, the group asked the TD for a ruling....it was difficult to explain the situation and a photo would really have helped.

Explaining the mando lines is all the TD should be doing with a photo but not making the call once explained. That's still the group's call once they know.

 

[Central Scrutinizer]

A dozen of us or so helped Garrett Gurthie find his Disc in the rough at the 2019 CCR Open. He was super nice, thanked us all, and then when he threw from that rough it scratched up his legs. "That'll teach me to get on it next time."

 

[Innova63]

While I think that having it the whole groups responsibility is generous, I think that allows players to try shots that are high risk (of getting lost or going OB) less responsible...
If it was only the player (and/or their caddy) who threw the disc that was responsible for finding it, maybe they don't go high risk.
Imagine how much faster tournament rounds could be, if that same player doesn't have to waste a whole groups time searching...the group could still help (but we really need to stick to the 3 minutes or even go back to 2 minutes) if they choose to, but they are not responsible.
I would also favor that the player needs to throw from the previous lie (I know, it would take time. But it would also probably, again, make the thrower responsible for their actions.) whether it is for a lost disc or OB.

 

[Steve West]

This is why they need to have designated hazards like ball golf has. Drop where it first crossed the hard to search area.

The TD can do that by calling an area either 806.02 Out-of-Bounds or 806.04 Relief Area (no-penalty OB). We still need a Lost Disc rule because there would be other places discs get lost; where no one thought a disc would ever go, or where no one thought there was any possibility the disc could find a place to hide.

why not have the ability to play a provisional from the tee in that scenario?

We do.

809.02 Provisional Throw
A. A provisional throw is an extra throw that is not added to a player's score if it is not ultimately used in the completion of the hole. The player must inform the group that a throw is provisional prior to making it.
B. Provisional throws are used:
1. To save time. A player may declare a provisional throw any time:
a. The status of a disc cannot be readily determined because it may be lost, out-of-bounds, or have missed a mandatory; and,
b. The group agrees that a provisional throw may save time.
The thrower then continues play from whichever of the two throws is deemed by the group or an Official to have resulted in the correct lie.

I think throwing 2 after the disc is legitimately lost would be an improvement. I think allowing the player to opt to throw 2 without the disc being legitimately lost is no bueno. I admittedly haven't given a lot of thought as to how to reconcile it with existing rules.

Good rules do not put players in a position of having an incentive to claim they broke a rule to get an advantage from the consequence. Whatever the best outcome of a violation could be, Abandoned Throw should not be less punishing than that. From the other perspective, no punishment should be worse than the punishment for Abandoning a throw.

If a player could re-throw from the tee throwing two by losing a disc, an internally consistent rule set would need to give them the ability to choose to re-throw from the tee throwing two.

Or, the rules could make them throw three from the tee for both, but it would not work to allow throwing two for lost, but three for abandoned.

I prefer the rule the way it is now, rethrow from previous lie with a penalty. But for the sake of discussion, how about a lost disc drop zone? Half way up the fairway or wherever the TD sees fit. Par 4s, maybe 2 drop zones, one for lost disc off the tee and another for other shots.

TDs can do that. You don't even need to lose the disc first, if they're nice TDs.

805.03 Lost Disc
...
C. ... If a drop zone has been designated for lost discs on the hole, the player may throw from the drop zone instead of from the previous lie.
...
E. If a drop zone has been provided for lost discs, the Director may allow players to proceed directly to the drop zone at the cost of two penalty throws.

The issue I see with a 'lost disc drop zone' is that it can be taken advantage of - especially by not-so-good players.
...

That's the reason it's not automatic; the TD has to designate it.

...Video might be useful for filming potential disciplinary situations where players get out-of-hand verbally or physically, ...

That's already allowed. So you'd better not pout, better not cry...

QA-APP-10
Q:
Can video or other media be used as evidence to make a rules call?
A:
PDGA policy is that video evidence can only be used to document player misconduct as defined under section 3.03 of the Competition Manual. Evidence of player misconduct may be evaluated at any time by the PDGA Disciplinary Committee. No other use of video or other media is allowed for the purpose of making rulings during tournament play.

If the group can't come to a consensus, the final decision is with the TD. ...

The TD's ruling IS final, but it should almost never come to that.

First, you only need to get a majority, not a consensus.

Second, if you can't get to a majority, you don't get to just throw up your hands and say "I dunno, let's ask the TD".

801.03 Appeals
A. When a group cannot reach a majority decision regarding a ruling, the ruling is based on the interpretation that is most beneficial to the thrower.
B. A player may appeal a group decision to an Official, or an Official's decision to the Director, by clearly and promptly stating that desire to the group.

Before the undecisive group gets the TD involved, they should rule in favor of the thrower.

Then, if one player really thinks the disc missed the mando, that one player can appeal. (As they bravely should, if they really think the ruling was wrong).

It's not the job of the TD to take on the players' duty as enforcers.

 

[davetherocketguy]

This is why they need to have designated hazards like ball golf has. Drop where it first crossed the hard to search area.

As Steve already said, this is already an option for TD's to designate problematic areas as OB or hazards. Ball golf already has a similar rule for lost balls as we do for lost discs if I am not mistaken. Its really not practical to designate every single area that a disc can get lost as OB or a hazard. I've seen discs get lost in high grass, leaves, the other side of the fairway, etc.

If you don't want to get penalized for losing a disc then keep it in the fairway.

 

[Agricolae]

If you don't want to get penalized for losing a disc then keep it in the fairway.

It is not uncommon to lose a disc that lands in the fairway, especially on wooded courses during fall/winter when there are abundant leaves on the ground. This creates a case where two good throws - both landing in the fairway - result in significant scoring differences; one penalized by stroke and distance and the other not.

The OP asked:

Should spectators be allowed to help players search for lost discs or tell players where their discs land.

You could argue that having spectators, caddies, film crews etc. could give players on those cards an advantage that is not quite fair to everyone in the tournament.

Extra spotters not available to the entire field are an advantage to those players who have them. Under the current rules, all players are allowed the same advantage by becoming popular enough to command their own spectator galleries or by forcing friends/family to follow the round and watch their throws.

 

[ballgolfconvert]

As Steve already said, this is already an option for TD's to designate problematic areas as OB or hazards. Ball golf already has a similar rule for lost balls as we do for lost discs if I am not mistaken. Its really not practical to designate every single area that a disc can get lost as OB or a hazard. I've seen discs get lost in high grass, leaves, the other side of the fairway, etc.

If you don't want to get penalized for losing a disc then keep it in the fairway.

If the disc is not thrown off the course property than it is not out of bounds in my view. Water is not out of bounds, it is a hazard, as should be any overgrown or swampy areas that are contained within the course property. I know disc golf rules say differently, but that is where the problem lies. The areas of the course are not defined properly in disc golf and as a result the penalties often do not make sense. Stroke and distance should only be in effect when the disc leaves the confines of the course or a disc is lost outside of a hard to search area.