Help me reach 500'

[Icarus]

Brychanus,

A few thoughts:

As an initial point, the "over-rotation" you note is intentional and is not required to stay balanced. I have found that the further I rotate the upper body, the more distance I get.

In summary of your work and reviewing Ezra's/other videos, I am rotating my hips much earlier in the throw, and am striding more backwards into the plant rather than sideways into the plant. I worked on striding more laterally today, and it felt quite a bit different on the timing. Initially things felt rushed when I did that, as I was rotating my upper body back later in the throw. I've noticed in my previous form reviews I tend to punch the disc back early and let it rise slightly before starting the throw. When I strode more lateral, it felt like that window to let the disc rise was gone, and I had to begin the throw immediately upon reaching full extension. That really messed me up for a bit on release angle.

After I practiced for a bit, though, things felt a bit better as I adjusted to the new timing. I still managed to throw 465' slightly uphill into a mild headwind, so I don't think distance suffered there. I'll try to get a video after another session or two as I adjust/tweak towards a more lateral stride.

 

[Brychanus]

Brychanus,

A few thoughts:

As an initial point, the "over-rotation" you note is intentional and is not required to stay balanced. I have found that the further I rotate the upper body, the more distance I get.

Totally, the elongated or coiled backswing for distance should be true in general, same for me & I think the big guys in general. Another way of saying what I was trying to is that your shoulder coil angle in the backswing is related to the rear leg or hip action and stride. Basically I am agreeing with what you say next:

In summary of your work and reviewing Ezra's/other videos, I am rotating my hips much earlier in the throw, and am striding more backwards into the plant rather than sideways into the plant. I worked on striding more laterally today, and it felt quite a bit different on the timing. Initially things felt rushed when I did that, as I was rotating my upper body back later in the throw. I've noticed in my previous form reviews I tend to punch the disc back early and let it rise slightly before starting the throw. When I strode more lateral, it felt like that window to let the disc rise was gone, and I had to begin the throw immediately upon reaching full extension. That really messed me up for a bit on release angle.

After I practiced for a bit, though, things felt a bit better as I adjusted to the new timing. I still managed to throw 465' slightly uphill into a mild headwind, so I don't think distance suffered there. I'll try to get a video after another session or two as I adjust/tweak towards a more lateral stride.

This sounds on the right track and is similar to what has started happening to me w/ drive side tinkering. Balance and rocking right into the plant is tricky.

If it's helpful, I found looking at these cool wire diagrams super helpful to understand the drive side and buttwipe and so on since you can eyeball how the leg interacts with the hips. Both Simon and GG are pretty perpendicular in the pelvis to the target and getting the right load and rock due to the ideal lateral stride. Super compact buttwipe with a strong lateral stride. We gotta flow, drift, and drop over that lateral stride...

 

[Icarus]

Okay, another video from today. Does this look any better?

Pics below compare previous form (earlier turning back) with newer form (delayed turning back). Note that I hit 515' back-to-back with the same disc/throw angle, so this may or may not be "better".

Photos below are from the "old" and "new" adjustments, with the "new" on the left side:

1st Row: Comparison of mid x-step point. New is more forward looking/facing versus the old, which had already begun turning back.

2nd Row: Comparison of moment my arm hit full extension. This is not the same point in the throw. The old still had the right plant foot in the air. New form has the arm fully extended right about the time the right foot begins to hit the ground.

3rd Row: Comparison of when the plant foot toes hit the ground. New is more lateral to the target versus the old which had the right foot/knee/hip more internally rotated. Not sure if that is good or bad - normally you are looking for more rotation of the hips away from target.

4th Row: Moment before the arm begins to accelerate away from the chest. New form has the upper body much more rotated than the old throw form. This is likely making up for the lesser hip rotation, as I'm getting more acceleration from the upper body than before.

 

[sidewinder22]

Still some pigeon toe/funky chicken looking posture in x-step.

Looks like your front leg is reaching out/accelerating ahead of your mass/drive leg. You start rising up as soon as your front foot plants instead of rotating/pivoting/clearing the front hip back. Your pressure never really shifts into your front heel and your heel starts moving further away from target while hip is moving targetward and up to get unstuck.

 

[Icarus]

SW22, it's the same thing that is causing me to rotate on mid-foot rather than on the heel. I've tried planting to weight the heel more, but nothing seems to shift the weight that far back. I suspect that my two decades of playing soccer have ingrained in me a habit of never weighting the heel during turning movements. With cleats, turning on a weighted heel is a great way to tear up your ACL or MCL because the cleats can grab while the hip rotates, destroying the knee.

As long as the hips are engaging well during the throw, though, what issue is this causing?

 

[Brychanus]

SW22, it's the same thing that is causing me to rotate on mid-foot rather than on the heel. I've tried planting to weight the heel more, but nothing seems to shift the weight that far back. I suspect that my two decades of playing soccer have ingrained in me a habit of never weighting the heel during turning movements. With cleats, turning on a weighted heel is a great way to tear up your ACL or MCL because the cleats can grab while the hip rotates, destroying the knee.

As long as the hips are engaging well during the throw, though, what issue is this causing?

We all have these deep habits

I can only speculate, but other than some loss in potential power, based on how your plant knee is moving you might get some rebound stress in the long run as it snaps back from the target.

 

[sidewinder22]

SW22, it's the same thing that is causing me to rotate on mid-foot rather than on the heel. I've tried planting to weight the heel more, but nothing seems to shift the weight that far back. I suspect that my two decades of playing soccer have ingrained in me a habit of never weighting the heel during turning movements. With cleats, turning on a weighted heel is a great way to tear up your ACL or MCL because the cleats can grab while the hip rotates, destroying the knee.

As long as the hips are engaging well during the throw, though, what issue is this causing?

You have to practice the motion/skill - just a little 1-2" shift into heel. Takes several weeks to learn new motor skill - unlearn habit. I also played a lot of soccer and had to learn this new motion/skill as well after breaking my tibia doing it the wrong way. You are putting a lot of extra stress on your body without a clean pivot.

 

[Icarus]

How to shift the weight, though? When I try sinking back towards the heel more ("sitting" more into the throw), my balance is off and I fall backwards (to the right of the teepad). Should I try to plant more staggered relative to my momentum? What did you practice to fix that?

 

[Brychanus]

I'm curious if SW22's on change differed, but he initially recommended to following to me:

I had to do this little move thousands of times over ~3 weeks.

Then I had to figure out how to do it when striding forward and backward with the Hershyzer drill and the Reverse stride drill.

Now it feels super weird when I don't do it, so even when I'm moving faster or x-stepping I tend to notice it quickly.

 

[sidewinder22]

^ That, Crush the Can, Swivel Stairs, One Leg Drill.

 

[Brychanus]

^ That, Crush the Can, Swivel Stairs, One Leg Drill.

Man, it's almost like you invented all of these drills for a reason

 

[Icarus]

One leg drill. I focused on weighting the heel for this. Throws were very wild.

 

[sidewinder22]

Need to figure 8.
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139973

 

[Icarus]

Ah. Your back leg is much wider. I'll give that a go. Not much room to figure-8 with the stance in the video.

 

[Icarus]

Okay, so it's been a few months since my last post. I haven't gotten to play much; a combination of weather, holidays, and minor injuries have kept me on the sidelines.

I'm just starting to get back out, but I've started working on trying to get my off-arm counterbalancing issue fixed. I noticed when watching the recently posted distance competition that off-arm drive started before they planted, and that the rear leg and off-arm seemed to often drive in together.

I tried getting that to work for the first time today, and I think it's made some difference. Take a look below and let me know what you think. The photo attached below is a before (top row) and today's attempts (bottom row).

 

[sidewinder22]

Not sure why your video quality is so grainy. You are also tiny in the frame.

Off arm looks a little better/tighter, but looks like you are too focused on a downward and/or rotational motion, instead of forward motion with the left elbow to left hip which should create some side bend and the left foot to leave the ground. Your left foot remains on the ground too late and looks like you are hugging yourself/rounding.

Elbow the hips forward and roll/drag the rear foot forward.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mpp7ZFLHK90#t=9m40s

 

[Icarus]

SW22,

Sorry about the video - I don't know what happened on the upload.

This was my first attempt at this today. It's funny you posted that Tamm photo- he was the inspiration for today's work.

Agreed on the downwards instead of inwards arm motion and late rear foot. I think that's a timing thing I'll need to work out. I noticed the rounding too - tucking my arm inside was turning my shoulders ahead of my arm.

One issue with the rounding - I've noticed that if I correct it (i.e. reach back further left in the video above), my throw goes off line and much further right than intended. I'm already running up at an angle to my intended line, and I have to make it a more severe angle to hit the intended line. Any thoughts there?

I personally feel like the off-arm movement finally clicked today. Am I being a bit overly optimistic about the progress made since last videos with this change?

 

[sidewinder22]

McBeth said in recent interview after worlds he had to focus on just keeping the off arm more back out of the way because he was rounding and pull hooking his shots. Tamm doesn't really bring his left arm in front his body, it goes to his side elbow to hip.

If you focus on the rear elbow to rear hip move I linked, it should cause some side bend and your rear foot to roll/release from the ground.

 

[Icarus]

I've been reviewing Tamm's 710' drive and I think I've been going off on a tangent with my left arm. You've been saying I need to keep it tighter, but every time I don't reach that elbow wide I lose 40-50 feet on the throw. That reaching out is a function of me pulling my left shoulder back to enhance rotation AND allows my left pec to fully extend. When I begin the throw, my left pec pulls tight, driving my shoulder in and accelerating the throw.

Look at Tamm in the video below and pause at 4:35. His arm is in an almost identical position - left shoulder rotated backwards, upper arm parallel with arm, and forearm also extended (mine is tucked). So I don't think that position is necessarily bad one.

His movement with the off arm as he begins the drive is better, with him getting the arm mass closer to the body than I do while also driving with the rear shoulder. However, I think my left arm reaching out like I do in prior videos is actually a correct starting point for shoulder drive.

My experience the field agrees - I can physically feel the throw going slower without the off arm drive, the discs don't turn as much (slower release velocity), and the final thrown distance is much, much shorter.

Thoughts?

 

[Hampejo]

His movement with the off arm as he begins the drive is better, with him getting the arm mass closer to the body than I do while also driving with the rear shoulder. However, I think my left arm reaching out like I do in prior videos is actually a correct starting point for shoulder drive.

I think this is SW's point. To me it looks like Tamm's elbow pushes against the hip more "south" than yours in the downswing. Your elbow goes more in front of your body which makes it look like the focus is more on rotational than pushing towards target.