Throwing 600+ (was 550) and want to reach the next level

[Nick481]

First of all, I want to say thank you to SW22, HUB, and the other people who helped set me on the right path with my backhand form all the way back in 2014 when I was a young teenager. Here's that original thread:
Help me throw farther

I haven't played much since then but got back into things a few weeks ago, now with a grown man's body, and immediately could appreciate all the putter field work and form help when I was starting out back then. My main goal with this post is to see if I have low-hanging fruit that can improve my efficiency which won't require massive fundamental changes to my swing identity, or if I should just keep using basic environmental constraints (like stand throws, throwing putters far, etc) and let my form develop organically.

I think my abundance of horsepower is carrying me a bit (6'3", 500lb deadlift, 300lb bench, sub 11 100m etc) but don't want to waste my potential if I can reach top-tier elite power levels with some basic improvements.

I am currently throwing around 75mph with max weight destroyers, usually worth 500-550 golf d, and touching 600 when I put it on a big distance line. I am really curious to hear what y'all think about my form, at your convenience of course!

 

[Kennets]

Nearly 600 is wild... I'm not gonna go too in-depth here, since there's plenty of more qualified people in here to do that.

There is glaring stuff that I'll point out.

- upper body/arm : in my opinion you loose a ton of power here. You're not getting the right hinge/optimal hinge out of your arm and end up "spinning out" instead of getting the right "out". There's ton of leverage to be gained there

- it looks like your plant foot open up ever so slightly when you plant.


You could absolutely hit elite distance with some form changes, no question about it.

Sw, brychanus or some of the others in here could definitely rip you a new one and get you to 600+ with time. With that fucking hulk body, i wouldn't be surprised if you could touch 700 at some point.

 

[Nick481]

Nearly 600 is wild... I'm not gonna go too in-depth here, since there's plenty of more qualified people in here to do that.

There is glaring stuff that I'll point out.

- upper body/arm : in my opinion you loose a ton of power here. You're not getting the right hinge/optimal hinge out of your arm and end up "spinning out" instead of getting the right "out". There's ton of leverage to be gained there

- it looks like your plant foot open up ever so slightly when you plant.


You could absolutely hit elite distance with some form changes, no question about it.

Sw, brychanus or some of the others in here could definitely rip you a new one and get you to 600+ with time. With that fucking hulk body, i wouldn't be surprised if you could touch 700 at some point.

Thank you for the response, Kennets. I can 100% see what you are talking about with the spinning out rather than staying over the disc to maintain leverage later in the throw. Candidly, I can feel this while throwing especially as I power up, I feel like I lose leverage and efficiency. Wonder if it's a skill that will develop or if I can drill it somehow.

I should have added to the OP that I have anatomically externally rotated hip joints and work hard on improving my IR mobility. But, I still find that while squeezing my knees, my body doesn't allow much IR during the throw which could be why my plant toe is somewhat open. I wouldn't be surprised if I can still recruit the hips better so maybe I should play around with it.

 

[Brychanus]

Nice rips!

You have obviously put in a lot of work and also I agree w/ you that you are getting a lot out of your "horsepower" right now.

1. Wouldn't necessarily recommend "Squeezing the knees." I think overall you are a little too power stanced and too vertical axis instead of tilted axis like a skiier/golfer/batter/. For some reason a pattern across heavy weightlifters is that they find these things among the hardest to change (probably because they spend a lot of time power stanced with both feet glued to the ground bearing a lot of load). IMO balance is a fundamental thing that needs focused work.

Check these out:



2. Relative to Tamm, you are leaning away and not fully centered in your balance. Can work on that in the context of the above or seabas22 Hershyzer drills or swivel stairs.



3. Related to the above, you're leaving the trailing leg and arm behind. IMO these are easier to fix in the context of the overall balance drills because it all needs to work together to pull it off (ideally).

4. As a fellow former heavy lifter, you might consider supplementing your lifts with things MLB pitchers do (more leg-to-leg lifts like lunges, isometric and dynamic one-legged moves, etc). I still benefit from using the turbo encabulator series and sometimes do them with light or moderate weights to help work on the various supporting muscles.

5. I am also curious what your form looks like when you try to throw on hyzer/hyzerflip, which usually makes it easier to access some of the lessons described above.

 

[Nick481]

Nice rips!

You have obviously put in a lot of work and also I agree w/ you that you are getting a lot out of your "horsepower" right now.

1. Wouldn't necessarily recommend "Squeezing the knees." I think overall you are a little too power stanced and too vertical axis instead of tilted axis like a skiier/golfer/batter/. For some reason a pattern across heavy weightlifters is that they find these things among the hardest to change (probably because they spend a lot of time power stanced with both feet glued to the ground bearing a lot of load). IMO balance is a fundamental thing that needs focused work.

Check these out:



2. Relative to Tamm, you are leaning away and not fully centered in your balance. Can work on that in the context of the above or seabas22 Hershyzer drills or swivel stairs.

View attachment 322093

3. Related to the above, you're leaving the trailing leg and arm behind. IMO these are easier to fix in the context of the overall balance drills because it all needs to work together to pull it off (ideally).

4. As a fellow former heavy lifter, you might consider supplementing your lifts with things MLB pitchers do (more leg-to-leg lifts like lunges, isometric and dynamic one-legged moves, etc). I still benefit from using the turbo encabulator series and sometimes do them with light or moderate weights to help work on the various supporting muscles.

5. I am also curious what your form looks like when you try to throw on hyzer/hyzerflip, which usually makes it easier to access some of the lessons described above.

I really appreciate the detailed response. Sounds like I am still throwing a bit from the top. What's funny is I am naturally an elastic dominant athlete in football and track (narrow pelvis, narrow ribcage) but over the years have started using more compressive strategies as I've gotten a stronger.

I do a lot of unilateral and deep iso work but clearly it's not translating yet to the backhand so I want to check out the drills you referenced. Maybe if I drill before field work, and then start with stand putter throws I can start to "feel" those better movement patterns before working up in power.

I'll make sure to get some clips of hyzer throws next time as well!

 

[Nick481]

21 seconds in is the side view. All throws were on a hyzer release.

I am really glad I made this thread, worked on taking the above suggestions of pulling through tighter to the body, staying on top of the disc more, and trying to be more balanced/stacked with the tilted spiral. I was expecting to be spraying throws all over the place from the major swing changes, but my accuracy somehow was the same or better.

I decided to use a lower, pronated reachback and pull-through (akin to GG for example) and cue "staying over the disc" to make sure I wasn't losing leverage. I immediately felt the disc closer to my body, more spin, a cleaner release, as well as a more effortless slingshot of the disc. What surprised me was how consistently my arm was supinating back to neutral and providing clean nose down, consistent releases with no wobble. I believe I can still lower my reachback a little bit especially on the higher power throws.

In the posture and lower body department, it appears that I had marginal positional improvements, but a little better timing and balance. I can get good rear hip drive and IR in practice swings, but my body shuts that down whenever I have to actually accelerate an implement. Could it be a dynamic strength or coordination issue that needs more work?

My controlled driver throws were only about 70mph, but the drastically increased spin was giving me longer flights (500 into a headwind on golf lines, some golf shots hitting 550 with a slight tailwind).

 

[Brychanus]

I really appreciate the detailed response. Sounds like I am still throwing a bit from the top. What's funny is I am naturally an elastic dominant athlete in football and track (narrow pelvis, narrow ribcage) but over the years have started using more compressive strategies as I've gotten a stronger.

I do a lot of unilateral and deep iso work but clearly it's not translating yet to the backhand so I want to check out the drills you referenced. Maybe if I drill before field work, and then start with stand putter throws I can start to "feel" those better movement patterns before working up in power.

I'll make sure to get some clips of hyzer throws next time as well!

I think you are leaking leverage out the rear side in the backswing. Watch your rear knee/hip compared to Calvin here. Calvin keeps more backswing heave or tension and gets much quicker off the rear instep directly into the plant instep.



Part of the problem is your balance/posture as you backswing. Tinkering with seabas22 Battering Ram and double dragon would probably be good for you right now. Those drills also help exaggerate the balance I mentioned above (beating "power stance" issues). This is missing from your form and part of why the rear arm and shift are leaving a fair bit on the table.

I think in addition to the drills I suggested before for changing balance, you could work on this little move coming off the rear foot into the plant. 9:42 in this video:

 

[Nick481]

I think you are leaking leverage out the rear side in the backswing. Watch your rear knee/hip compared to Calvin here. Calvin keeps more backswing heave or tension and gets much quicker off the rear instep directly into the plant instep.



Part of the problem is your balance/posture as you backswing. Tinkering with seabas22 Battering Ram and double dragon would probably be good for you right now. Those drills also help exaggerate the balance I mentioned above (beating "power stance" issues). This is missing from your form and part of why the rear arm and shift are leaving a fair bit on the table.

I think in addition to the drills I suggested before for changing balance, you could work on this little move coming off the rear foot into the plant. 9:42 in this video:

Understood, thank you for the extra info. I'm gonna play with the balance and shift drills some more to see if I can carry over the sensation from the warmup into the field work. Will keep things updated in here.

 

[Brychanus]

Understood, thank you for the extra info. I'm gonna play with the balance and shift drills some more to see if I can carry over the sensation from the warmup into the field work. Will keep things updated in here.

Keep in mind when you work on those big "pendulum" balance drills, it's helpful to do them in the full range of motion, and also that the difference in movement can feel pretty big even if the change in the final form looks pretty small on camera. E.g., when working on some of these major adjustments myself the past month, the whole move is starting to "feel" way more like a golf swing because it is becoming overall better aligned with gravity, whereas before it "felt" more like I was swinging rotationally around my body.

 

[sidewinder22]

1. Can turn your shoulders a little further back.
2. Your rear leg is extending pushing your left hip upward and upper body over the top the front hip. You can see how Ezra shifted his weight pressure forward off the rear foot and the rear leg/pelvis can swivel freely.

 

[Nick481]

1. Can turn your shoulders a little further back.
2. Your rear leg is extending pushing your left hip upward and upper body over the top the front hip. You can see how Ezra shifted his weight pressure forward off the rear foot and the rear leg/pelvis can swivel freely.
View attachment 322340

That makes sense. Really nice to see you are still on here helping with form by the way! Been reading through your and John's pdf and it's been really fruitful.

Looks like I can cue getting that left shoulderblade turned more towards the target and then initiate a stronger hip shift to the target (getting lower body off the rear side) with the power move. I should have vids tomorrow when I get to the field.

 

[Nick481]

Past couple weeks I've been working hard on the stuff you guys showed me with my positions and lower body usage, as well as hip and back mobility.

Last couple of sessions I started to really feel the sensation of loading into that front hip and getting into a dynamically balanced swing, where the upper body almost gets left behind as I patiently load onto the front leg (at least that's how I had to internally cue to get it to finally happen) allowing the rear leg to counter more freely (getting out of the "power stance").

Have been throwing over 600 now on distance lines and 500 on pure hyzers, with some 450' buzzz throws as well. It also feels more effortless and like my back/upper body is essentially not working at all, which is extremely satisfying.

Still some inconsistencies with posture and absolutely still a lot of room to improve, but here's a vid and pic from today:

 

[sidewinder22]

Your feet/knees are too turned out unless you are seriously naturally duck footed. You are in more of an immoveable horsestance while Ezra and Rick are in more of a speed skater stance with one leg more turned in. Your rear foot is more backwards than Rick and front foot is more open than Ezra.

 

[Nick481]

Your feet/knees are too turned out unless you are seriously naturally duck footed. You are in more of an immoveable horsestance while Ezra and Rick are in more of a speed skater stance with one leg more turned in. Your rear foot is more backwards than Rick and front foot is more open than Ezra.
View attachment 322757

Thanks for checking out the update!

I am for sure naturally duck footed (partially from a tibial twist and partially from hip joint anatomy), when I look back at my football and track film from youth I can see external rotation dominance, and even developing my back squat my optimal stance was fairly toes out.

I'm working on the IR mobility and dynamic strength hard right now because I want to get into more similar positions to the pros you have been showing me + it will help my skiing since I carve deep and that requires really stacked posture in deep hip flexion with IR.

 

[Brychanus]

Thanks for checking out the update!

I am for sure naturally duck footed (partially from a tibial twist and partially from hip joint anatomy), when I look back at my football and track film from youth I can see external rotation dominance, and even developing my back squat my optimal stance was fairly toes out.

I'm working on the IR mobility and dynamic strength hard right now because I want to get into more similar positions to the pros you have been showing me + it will help my skiing since I carve deep and that requires really stacked posture in deep hip flexion with IR.

I agree w/ SW and you- I think you're just slightly horse stanced getting slightly stuck in transition even if your feet are very close to the right amount of ER.

Ezra and Wysocki there maintain better leverage/quicker/tighter transition foot too foot going instep to instep.

I think part of the issue is that you are still lacking just a bit of that pendulum like action of the whole body landing in braced tilt that is exaggerated by turbo encabulator, double dragon, kick the can. It all needs to function as a unit going foot to foot.

Obviously your distance is Elite+, though I think efficiency and consistency would theoretically improve for you. Might be some more D in there too, only one way to find out ;-)

 

[Nick481]

Thanks for checking out the update!

I am for sure naturally duck footed, when I look back at my football and track film from youth I can see femur ER dominance, and even developing my back squat my optimal stance was fairly toes out.

But I'm working on the IR mobility and dynamic strength hard right now because I want to get it more similar to the pros you are showing there, plus it will help my skiing since I carve deep and that requires really stacked posture in deep hip flexion with IR.

I agree w/ SW and you- I think you're just slightly horse stanced getting slightly stuck in transition even if your feet are very close to the right amount of ER.

Ezra and Wysocki there maintain better leverage/quicker/tighter transition foot too foot going instep to instep.

I think part of the issue is that you are still lacking just a bit of that pendulum like action of the whole body landing in braced tilt that is exaggerated by turbo encabulator, double dragon, kick the can. It all needs to function as a unit going foot to foot.

Obviously your distance is Elite+, though I think efficiency and consistency would theoretically improve for you. Might be some more D in there too, only one way to find out ;-)

That makes sense. You guys have done a good job of showing those differences and how they can help with efficiency, I finally feel it translating a bit from the drills/warmups into my x-steps so I'm hoping to continue chipping away at it.

If the extra efficiency makes throwing more sustainable/healthy long-term, the extra distance is just a bonus for me I don't want to be too overly dependent on whatever strength and power I have at age 26 because I know it won't stay like that forever haha.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

First World Problems...

 

[Brychanus]

That makes sense. You guys have done a good job of showing those differences and how they can help with efficiency, I finally feel it translating a bit from the drills/warmups into my x-steps so I'm hoping to continue chipping away at it.

If the extra efficiency makes throwing more sustainable/healthy long-term, the extra distance is just a bonus for me I don't want to be too overly dependent on whatever strength and power I have at age 26 because I know it won't stay like that forever haha.

First World Problems...

I did think that even if he lost like 150' in middle age he would still probably be in the <1%ile, and then could afford to give away another 50' to his cardmates for charity. Some people just gonna bomb.

 

[sidewinder22]

Patrick Brown still bombs in his 50s. Love his technique!

 

[Nick481]

Patrick Brown still bombs in his 50s. Love his technique!

Really nice to see examples of longevity with the backhand like him. I also feel for a lot of the touring pros though, between the inconsistent sleep and diet situation + lack of access to consistent strength training equipment, it must be harder to maintain general strength and joint integrity for most, especially in the context of the repetitive asymmetric loading they see.