Did I fix that? I'm not sure.
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How to Choose a Senior-Friendly Pro Event
- Thread starter shive
- Start date
jjpitt29
Birdie Member
Actually I was just trying to show that people do value the older athletes, wasn't making a direct analogy. How about answering the question?
A question that I ask a lot. Even when I'm part of a club that's doing so.
Below NT level, the reasons are a little weak. We're either trying to bring more players, or more top players---or, at least, top local or regional players. Now, everyone wants more players at tournaments, but I'm not sure paying them to attend makes sense. There's a bit of an ego boost when top players come, which, whether you think it's noble or laughable, probably plays a big part.
At the NT & Major level, it becomes part of the effort to create a sustained pro tour. Plenty of people would like to see one be a part of the larger disc golf universe, and some are doing their part to make it happen by raising cash to add to payouts. If you want to see a sustained pro tour it makes sense and if you don't, it doesn't matter.
The thing about golfers is that the money they're paid, directly or indirectly, is coming from spectators.
Senior golfers will draw enough fans, in person or on TV, to be worthwhile to advertisiers.
Almost none of the money added to disc golf payouts comes from spectators, or advertising to spectators.
grodney
* Ace Member *
Ha ha, yes, exactly. My argument definitely extends there, but that's a whole other can.
jjpitt29
Birdie Member
Would this not be more easily accomplished with lower entry fees?
shive
Par Member
to grodney:
It's funny how, after we choose to join in a member category that plays for money and pay a dues premium to do so, some people say we shouldn't care about money. Maybe we don't make our living playing disc golf, but many of us depend on winnings to offset tour expenses. Just like many Open players.
Money in disc golf is a zero-sum game. Maybe even a slightly negative-sum game. Except for added cash. That's why we look to see where it goes.
We don't expect tournaments to add cash to 40+ pro divisions. Many don't. But if they do, we want to know about it. It is attractive.
It's funny how, after we choose to join in a member category that plays for money and pay a dues premium to do so, some people say we shouldn't care about money. Maybe we don't make our living playing disc golf, but many of us depend on winnings to offset tour expenses. Just like many Open players.
Money in disc golf is a zero-sum game. Maybe even a slightly negative-sum game. Except for added cash. That's why we look to see where it goes.
We don't expect tournaments to add cash to 40+ pro divisions. Many don't. But if they do, we want to know about it. It is attractive.
The simple fact that this country is aging, should be a consideration for tournament play. As the march of the baby boomers continues, so too does the graying of our game. Master+ players are going to continue to represent larger and larger portions of tournament players. Catering to them could become vital to tournament success moving forward.
BgWvDave
Double Eagle Member
JC Clearly there are TD on both sides of the fence. The vast majority here in NC subscribe to my way of thinking. Neither are wrong and as you stated it is their prerogative which was my point.
Perhaps, in the case of "more players"; no, in the case of "more top players".
Tournaments aren't run in a vacuum. They're affected by other tournaments. So if we want people to come to our tournament, we have to offer something equal to, or better than, other local and regional tournaments.
This might be added cash, even if we're reluctant. If everyone else is enticing players with added cash, we might feel we need to match that, or do without players at our tournament.
Or it might be lower fees, or a better course, or some other enhancements.
Cgkdisc
.:Hall of Fame Member:.
The majority of TDs are at least Master age. Not surprising, I checked. If they were striving hard to be Open winners in any tier when that age or even now, they seem to prefer moving a higher proportion of cash to the Open division. If they were/are amateurs or never open contenders, they seem to be biased toward equal distribution of added cash unless they feel shifting the money upward is an important marketing tool to get top players to attend their event.
jjpitt29
Birdie Member
So lower entry fees with added cash = Holy grail? (given the rest of the tournament atmosphere is good)
For players. I'm not sure added cash makes sense from TDs.
I understand Peter's position on this. I'm a lifetime Am player. I don't think Ams should be getting more merchandise than they pay in entry fees. But if a tournament does decide to have a players pack worth twice my entry, I might go, and I might like it, and I might pass the word to other Ams that they ought to check it out too.
So if Senior Pros want to spread the word of "Senior-generous" events among themselves, sure.
To me, the added cash question, at least below NT level, goes like this:
(1) What is the reason for adding cash at all, to any divission?
(2) If we decide that's a good reason, does it apply to Senior pros as well as Open players?
(3) If we decide that it does, how should it be distributed between divisions? What's fairest? What accomplishes our goal of adding cash, to begin with?
Mr. Shive could you list the events on your tour?
At the league I participate in the largest group is the masters. They also have the highest payouts and usually the lowest scores. It isn't less competitive because of the numbers, it is more. I couldn't agree more with Shive. I look for value and numbers since I can now play in almost any division. If a tournament works to attract more players in a particular division it's a win.
Since the open division doesn't have entry requirements or hard rating minimums it is hard to look at it as anything other than just another division.
Since the open division doesn't have entry requirements or hard rating minimums it is hard to look at it as anything other than just another division.
jjpitt29
Birdie Member
1) Added cash should allow us to lower entry fees making the experience more available to all and less of a sting in the pocket book.
2) All divisions
3) Scaled down. Open largest (men/women), Masters, Advanced
Even if just for ams it's a nicer players pack. (Then I think am's shouldn't have payouts)
We're talking about different things. By "added cash", I---and Peter---mean cash added to the total purse paid to Pros, in addition to their accumulated entry fees, so that those who win cash, win more cash.
biscoe
* Ace Member *
Yes!!!!!
jjpitt29
Birdie Member
No, we are talking about the same thing I assure you. I think we differ on the purpose or the "result" of added cash.
shive
Par Member
To MikeK:
This year is different, in the sense that I haven't defined a tour. Every other year I asked the newsgroup members to nominate events they thought were "senior-friendly". Then I sent a questionnaire to the TD of the nominated events to look into the important details and chose the dozen to fifteen I thought were the best, and we would then promote and sometimes even support them.
This year I have had some health-related issues, and did not feel up to the amount of detailed effort that takes. I need to avoid unnecessary stresses, especially the ones that arise from self-imposed deadlines. That means that the newsgroup members will be doing the selecting, promoting and (perhaps) supporting of the events on their own this year. To give them some guidelines I sent them the information in the lead post of this thread. Then I thought that, as a DGCR thread, it might spark some interesting discussion. It has.
Although there is no formal Tour this year, I will be making some general recommendations based on our experiences over the past few years. I can share some of that here. But not all. This thread can get emotional, and I don't want to subject any TD to pressures to become more or less "senior-friendly". Also, I am not all-knowing, and I'm sure that I would fail to mention some extremely senior-friendly events out of sheer ignorance. I hope that my newsgroup members fill me in on these as the year progresses.
I can say that one of our best (perhaps the best) events has been Pro Worlds. As Chuck Kennedy noted earlier, Pro Worlds has level entry fees, and has consistently had a level payout with about 25% added cash over the years. And, after the MPS format debacle in 2001, its challenge level has been consistently outstanding. On that basis I recommend it highly to any 40+ pro.
We note (see fall 2014 PDGA summit minutes) that Pro Worlds may soon become Open-only, and that the 40+ pros would be relegated to a more "family get-together" type of event which would presumably be less competitive and have less added cash. That would be very sad for us.
This year is different, in the sense that I haven't defined a tour. Every other year I asked the newsgroup members to nominate events they thought were "senior-friendly". Then I sent a questionnaire to the TD of the nominated events to look into the important details and chose the dozen to fifteen I thought were the best, and we would then promote and sometimes even support them.
This year I have had some health-related issues, and did not feel up to the amount of detailed effort that takes. I need to avoid unnecessary stresses, especially the ones that arise from self-imposed deadlines. That means that the newsgroup members will be doing the selecting, promoting and (perhaps) supporting of the events on their own this year. To give them some guidelines I sent them the information in the lead post of this thread. Then I thought that, as a DGCR thread, it might spark some interesting discussion. It has.
Although there is no formal Tour this year, I will be making some general recommendations based on our experiences over the past few years. I can share some of that here. But not all. This thread can get emotional, and I don't want to subject any TD to pressures to become more or less "senior-friendly". Also, I am not all-knowing, and I'm sure that I would fail to mention some extremely senior-friendly events out of sheer ignorance. I hope that my newsgroup members fill me in on these as the year progresses.
I can say that one of our best (perhaps the best) events has been Pro Worlds. As Chuck Kennedy noted earlier, Pro Worlds has level entry fees, and has consistently had a level payout with about 25% added cash over the years. And, after the MPS format debacle in 2001, its challenge level has been consistently outstanding. On that basis I recommend it highly to any 40+ pro.
We note (see fall 2014 PDGA summit minutes) that Pro Worlds may soon become Open-only, and that the 40+ pros would be relegated to a more "family get-together" type of event which would presumably be less competitive and have less added cash. That would be very sad for us.
