Are we saying that throwing a flex shot won't gain extra distance over the same disc thrown flat? If so, I don't agree. Throwing with anhyzer release allows the disc to follow that line and then flatten out as it enters it's low speed portion of flight. Compared to thrown flat the disc gaiins that extra distance fighting out of the anhyzer angle and then fading out.
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Hyzer Flip Reversed?
- Thread starter KDinIN
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TheBeardedFatGuy
Birdie Member
That makes absolutely no sense. It's a completely subjective term and measurement with no uniformly defined scale. How can you say it's wrong when it doesn't even really measure anything?
That would be like going into an Asian restaurant and saying, you can't have spicy level 10, 9 is the hottest!
Don't understand how you can say it doesn't measure anything. Are you saying a -5 Turn disc doesn't fly differently than a 0 Turn disc? That's like saying 90 degrees farenheit doesn't measure anything. The 'scale" for understability is the Turn rating.
Tell that to my beat 150 Leos.
I disagree with this. I throw a Nuke OS. During its high speed portion, it gains hyzer angle. During it's low speed portion, it gains hyzer angle more quickly.
Oh, man ... can we landfill this so I can make a "Stable" rant ???? :clap:
Farenheit is a scientifically defined measurement. Turn rating is purely subjective, depending on the manufacturer's whims.
If Innova decides a Teebird has a turn rating of 0, and they make a disc that is less understable, the only logical turn rating to give it would be a +1.
TheBeardedFatGuy
Birdie Member
Then I would say they measured the relative Turn ratings on their own discs poorly. But the fact a thermometer is off, or is read wrong, doesn't change the fact there is a measurable phenomenon that can be expressed on a scale. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water (seriously, Child Protective Services will gank you.)
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Breaking down stability into one measurement isn't correct either. There's a high speed stability (HSS) and low speed stability (LSS) component to every disc's flight. Combining the two is what determines what is an overstable or understable disc.
Turn rating is relative to throw speed, which manufacturers haven't shared how it is they gauge.
For example, if Innova declares all of their speed 7 discs as ideally thrown at 30mph, then 0 turn is a disc that flies straight initially when thrown flat at 30mph.
Whereas a speed 9 disc which might be declared as ideal for 40mph throw, then throwing such a 0 turn rated disc at only 30mph will +turn it (underspeed = overstable/hook, overspeed = more turn).
For example, if Innova declares all of their speed 7 discs as ideally thrown at 30mph, then 0 turn is a disc that flies straight initially when thrown flat at 30mph.
Whereas a speed 9 disc which might be declared as ideal for 40mph throw, then throwing such a 0 turn rated disc at only 30mph will +turn it (underspeed = overstable/hook, overspeed = more turn).
TheBeardedFatGuy
Birdie Member
Out of curiosity, how would you rate the understability of a disc that has high Turn (HSS) but also a significant amount of Fade (LSS)? When we talk overstable discs, we're usually talking about discs that finish left (RHBH). Thats accomplished usually with low Turn and high Fade. What I'm trying to get across is that overstable is not understable's mirror image.
#1 -- sorry about that first response, but you did kinda ask for it.
#2 -- here's what you need to know. The answer to your question is no, but not for the reasons you think, and also, not because of what some on here say. There are a lot of people who don't really understand what stability is. Plus, there are those who do understand stability fine, but who have simply acquiesced to most people say, just to keep it simple.
You'll commonly hear that (for RHBH) when thrown correctly, an under-stable disc will tend to turn right and an over-stable disc will tend to turn left. That's not exactly correct strictly about stability. Stability is the resistance to turn (either way) in flight. which is a subtle distinction which means an over-stable disc will tend to get to the ground faster on the BH side edge than an understable disc, which will tend to stay aloft and resist getting to the ground. That's why OS's tend left and US's tend right. "Stable" is the most misused term in disc golf because "stable" means the tendency to relist turn, or, in other words, the tendency to remain straight.
So, why the physics lesson? Well, to give the background in my explanation. You can "Hyzer flip" any disc; however, most people talk about "Hyzer-flipping" in context of adding distance meaning, you want a disc that stays aloft. Hence the use of an understable disc when Hy-flipping for distance. If thrown flat a US disc would stay aloft and tend to turn to the right (from say, flat 90º to the right, say 105º), but since you're throwing it with a Hyzer-release angle, it turns from tilted 60º "up" to a flat 90º and flies. But its tendency is to stay aloft. It doesn't really "flip" to the right or "flip" up; it's turning in that direction then staying aloft.
An OS disc is not the same. If you throw an OS disc from an anyhyzer release angle (say 105º), it will go to flat (not "flip down"), but it won't stay that way, because its tendency is to get to the ground faster, so it'll fall back over to BH (or FH in your case) side very quickly.
I guess it depends on your definition of "high amount". There's not a ton of discs that are -4/4.
Also, your last comment makes no sense. Nobody that knows anything about disc flight would claim that, or you're not making it clear what you're trying to get across.
tbird888
Salient Disc Test Team
All discs, given enough time aloft, will fade. Does that make them all overstable?
TheBeardedFatGuy
Birdie Member
Since you asked semi-nicely, I'll try to explain what I mean. If we were hucking paper airplanes instead of spinning discs they could easily modify the designs to bank left or right with mirrored results. But because we throw spinning discs, we get gyroscopic precession, the force that tips a RHBH disc to the right in the first phase of flight. If you always throw RHBH, you will always have this force trying to pull your disc over to the right. How much a disc resists this force to remain flat or 'stable' determines how understable it is (more resistant = less understable). There is no matching force pulling a disc to the left until the disc tips and precession swings around. Because the force is unequal, you will never see a disc 'turn over' to the left, flatten out, then fade right (a reverse S-curve), unless you throw LHBH or RHFH. If we equate the Turn Rating with our best yard stick for understability (which I think it is), you cant, for example make a +3 Turn disc and expect it's flight to be a mirror image of a -3 Turn disc.
Understable means that a disc has a lot of high-speed turn and tends to not have much low-speed fade.
Overstable means the opposite in in both regards: tends to resist high-speed turn and has a propensity for low-speed fade.
However, when you swap those properties around, it doesn't mean that you get a mirror image flight pattern.
I think that TBFG was off-track when trying to define understability as merely related to the high-speed turn of the flight. That's the easiest way to idenfity understability (and generally what people mean when they say "flippy"), but as discussed above both understable and overstable relate to the high- and low-speed portions of disc flight.
Also, flight numbers are subjective and unitless. It's incorrect to say that flight numbers are comparable to a scientific system of measurement with objectively defined unit spacing.
Overstable means the opposite in in both regards: tends to resist high-speed turn and has a propensity for low-speed fade.
However, when you swap those properties around, it doesn't mean that you get a mirror image flight pattern.
I think that TBFG was off-track when trying to define understability as merely related to the high-speed turn of the flight. That's the easiest way to idenfity understability (and generally what people mean when they say "flippy"), but as discussed above both understable and overstable relate to the high- and low-speed portions of disc flight.
Also, flight numbers are subjective and unitless. It's incorrect to say that flight numbers are comparable to a scientific system of measurement with objectively defined unit spacing.
Teamkiller
Par Member
under/over stability to me at least is simply whether the net result of the throw was left or right of the release line... for me LHBH an over stable disc will end up on the right side of my release line because the distance travelled left to right is dominated by the fade... understable would be the opposite a disc that when thrown properly and flat ends up on the left side of the line for me... stable would be relatively on the line of release when landing.. don't make it complicated OS means it will fade more than turn and U/S means it will turn more than it fades.
TheBeardedFatGuy
Birdie Member
Good luck with your new rating system that drills down to the tenth decimal place - I'm sure it will be awesome. As for temperature, if knowing it's -25, 50, or 125 degrees outside isn't enough granularity to tell you to wear either a parka, t-shirt or heat shield, nice knowing you. Increased granularity of any scale eventually hits a point of diminishing returns. That's why there is no longer a half cent coin.
Yes, I understand the physics involved in a disc's flight. I also understand common sense. I applaud you for assuming I knew neither.
Anybody that's thrown a disc more than a few times understands what you're laying out. You can stop trying to sound like the smartest guy in the room now.
TheBeardedFatGuy
Birdie Member
Then don't ask questions you don't want the answer to. Or would that be too smart a thing to do? Starting to think it may be.
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