Internet wisdom?

[jenb]

I think I learned a lot from discing down all of last year and avoiding flex shots, even during tournaments. One of things I learned though was after I disced back up. Throwing flex shots with high speed drivers produces higher round ratings.

 

[garublador]

The big problem is everyone thinks discing down should be done for a lifetime. It's a training technique, like athletes wearing weighted vests underneath their uniforms during practice season to build speed. They don't keep wearing them once it's time for the regular season. The same applies to discing down.

Could you cite places where "everyone" says this? I've never heard that before. Many people find that they don't need or can't properly throw the really fast discs after they've corrected their form, but if you're happy with your distance and line shaping and find value in faster discs there's no reason not to throw them.

 

[Pwingles]

I feel like discing down is a very important stepping stone on the way to learning good form, line shaping, developing snap, identifying unnecessary overlap, course management, i also feel it will help define your style so that you can find the molds that fit your style and maximize your potential with less effort.

That said, to take it as gospel can be a mistake for some.

Some people use it as an every now and then refresher course type thing. Some do it once and never feel the need to do it more. Other people are just gifted and could never articulate to you how and why they do what they do. The last group mentioned there make up the vast majority of pros imo. I know feldberg is a teacher and a coach, so in particular he doesnt fall into that category.

I see DD as a driving range or a practice green, its as useful and productive and insightful and educational as you make it. Or its dull and boring and not for you.
Additionally some players learn differently and not all "tried and true" methods are going to make an impact but in general i feel like its the best place for someone who has played casually or semi competetively and seemingly hit a plateu, to start from and re engineer their game.

 

[garublador]

It's also worth noting that the two pros cited in the OP both learned to throw by "discing down." They had no other choice, they both went pro before any of the high speed drivers came out.

 

[jtreadwell]

Also, like any sane person, I'd trust them more over an internet forum of amateurs (150% including myself in the latter grouping).

Something tells me we have more pros on here than we think. I'm not one, but just saying.

I feel like discing down is a very important stepping stone on the way to learning good form, line shaping, developing snap, identifying unnecessary overlap, course management, i also feel it will help define your style so that you can find the molds that fit your style and maximize your potential with less effort.

That said, to take it as gospel can be a mistake for some.

Some people use it as an every now and then refresher course type thing. Some do it once and never feel the need to do it more. Other people are just gifted and could never articulate to you how and why they do what they do. The last group mentioned there make up the vast majority of pros imo. I know feldberg is a teacher and a coach, so in particular he doesnt fall into that category.

I see DD as a driving range or a practice green, its as useful and productive and insightful and educational as you make it. Or its dull and boring and not for you.
Additionally some players learn differently and not all "tried and true" methods are going to make an impact but in general i feel like its the best place for someone who has played casually or semi competetively and seemingly hit a plateau, to start from and re engineer their game.

Well said.

 

[slowRoll]

I think the most important thing that has come out of this discussion is that we've clarified the following:

Discing down is a training method to increase your abilities in the long term. It is not however the best way to actually play discgolf longterm.

I think a lot of people misunderstand this and therefore misunderstand exactly what discing down is. I really liked the athlete in the weighted vest analogy ArcheType posted. That really cleared it up for me. Good discussion all.

 

[BrotherDave]

If you think discing down is bad advice you either never needed to do it in the first place or you've done it wrong.

 

[ohtobediscing]

The egos are strong in here today.

 

[garublador]

I think the most important thing that has come out of this discussion is that we've clarified the following:

Discing down is a training method to increase your abilities in the long term. It is not however the best way to actually play discgolf longterm.

I think a lot of people misunderstand this and therefore misunderstand exactly what discing down is. I really liked the athlete in the weighted vest analogy ArcheType posted. That really cleared it up for me. Good discussion all.

I really think you're only listening to the parts of the discussion that you want to hear. The weighted vest won't help teach any fundamental skills for any given sport. Learning to throw discs that aren't very fast well isn't just some drill, it's the easiest way to learn fundamental technique and skills. The goal of discing down isn't to teach you how to throw fast discs, it's to teach you how to throw all discs. It's not a way to make things harder, it's a way to make learning easier. Talking about it as if it's a way to hinder you in some way is totally missing the point.

Rather than calling it "discing down" and thinking of it as a drill, you should be calling it "learning fundamentals" and it should be a prerequisite to worrying about score at all. Once you're happy with your fundamentals, then finding ways to improve your score will be beneficial. Until then your score will only get so good becasue those with good fundamentals will always have an advantage.

If you don't believe me, ask this person who I went back and forth with on the benefits of spending the time learning fundamentals rather than worrying about their tournament scores some time ago and see what point they're at now:

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57120

 

[Oklahyzer]

Rather than calling it "discing down" and thinking of it as a drill, you should be calling it "learning fundamentals" and it should be a prerequisite to worrying about score at all.

Exactly. I don't remember when the term "discing down" got popularized, but calling it something more accurate like "fundamentals" is spot on. As mentioned above, it's most often a form of taking a step back to re-engineer throwing mechanics and/or correct problems. This may be an important distinction in the way most of us use/look at the term vs. the responses that Climo and Feldberg gave.

For one, pros with their experience and skill are just at a different level and will predictably respond to the question from a different perspective because of that. But maybe more importantly, since they've been around long enough, they never needed to "disc down" because the progression of faster discs saw them "discing up" with each new development in equipment. Because they had the clean form from using slower discs for years and became able to bomb those, stepping up to faster discs was natural, with a solid base of fundamental skills already under their belts.

With the zillions of choices of drivers today and the misinformation or purchasing mistakes that less experienced players so often make, the majority of us look at this from a very different perspective. Rather than "building up" from form fundamentals as those two pros did, we are often "discing down" to rebuild after an improper start in the sport.

 

[slowRoll]

I really think you're only listening to the parts of the discussion that you want to hear...

...If you don't believe me, ask this person who I went back and forth with on the benefits of spending the time learning fundamentals rather than worrying about their tournament scores some time ago and see what point they're at now:

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57120

He's at the same place he was 2 years ago. Throws 300ish, hits his gaps, and makes most putts. 950ish golf. Only now he is older and has his hands full with work, raising 2 teenagers, and doesn't get to play as much as he used to much less practice.

This seemed like a cheap shot to me, and you just lost some credibility in my eyes garu.

 

[New013]

All I can say is I know a local guy who has been taking lessons with a local pro for about 6 months and he still maxes out at around 370.

On the other hand I have just taken advice from people on this forum and DGR and I can hit 400 with a speed 7 disc.

I'm not disputing whether or not Climo and Feldberg can teach people how to play disc golf, they probably have more knowledge on the subject than most of the people on the forum. But if they are actually advising people to start out throwing high speed drivers then I disagree with them.

Now let's just wait for Tacoma to name drop some more.

 

[keltik]

I'm a big proponent of discing down. but I see it like this: it is a tool. And everyone has the free will to make the choice to use the tool or not. Others have very eloquently spoken in favor and against DD. others not so much. It's not meant to be a fix all just a handy tool for making incremental distance increases. I think people on here have been promoting so much because it works. Kinda like driving a nail with a rock vs. a hammer.

 

[slowRoll]

I'm not disputing whether or not Climo and Feldberg can teach people how to play disc golf, they probably have more knowledge on the subject than most of the people on the forum. But if they are actually advising people to start out throwing high speed drivers then I disagree with them.

I don't think they were. I think the point the pros were making with my buddy was that at a certian point (around 200') they wouldn't throw a putter at it, they would switch to a mid, and a little further out they would switch to a fairway, and so on. At least thats how he said it went.

I'm really supprised that so many of you pounced on the discing down thing. I tried to stay neutral in my opening post and just presented thoughts up for discussion. You guys are the ones that turned my thread into a pro/anti discing down discussion. I'm not going to argue pro/con DD because that isn't what I wanted to do when I created this thread. I don't like when people take shots at me and I don't want to have to do that crap to anyone else either. It is beneath us all.

I posted what I did on my need a coach thread because I'm at a point in my life where I've got more $ than time. Because of this, if I'm going to continue to play, I want to use what little time I have wisely. BTW... none of you bothered to step up for that teaching opportunity (No offense New013, theres no way we can play together being 7 hours apart). Thankfully my buddy CL took me up on it locally on his own and I had a great time learning about my rounding problem from him. BTW part 2, Ken and Dave charged my friend a whopping $25 an hour. A golf lesson from someone you've never heard of will run you twice that. He only paid $75 to spend 3 hours working one on one with the best in the world. How lucky are we that our very best players will do something like this for such a small amount?

The reality I've come away with is that the best players in the world might know how to throw a putter 300', but they rarely do it when it counts.

 

[BrotherDave]

The reality I've come away with is that the best players in the world might know how to throw a putter 300', but they rarely do it when it counts.

That's obviously a very over-generalized statement though. Every hole is different.

 

[New013]

I'll again point out that neither of these pros have an Anode, Ion or Wizard in their bag. I wouldn't throw an Aviar/Dart/Aero/Wedge/Birdie/Polecat/Sonic/Hydra at a 300' hole either.

I would throw a Pig/Rhyno at some depending on the hole and weather conditions but that's also really rare and only when a hyzer route is needed. My point being is that they have Aviars.. I would never recommend somebody to throw an Aviar at a 300' hole.

I also think it's overgeneralization in that you're saying that pros don't drive with putters when you're only citing 2 pros. There's a lot more pros than just 2.

Furthermore, I'll cite one Tony Tomasino who is an old school dg'er from the 70's. That guy whips most of the boys on the course regularly with two putters, no matter how long the hole is he throws it right up the gut about 280' with a putter.

 

[JoshEpoo]

at a certian point (around 200') they wouldn't throw a putter at it, they would switch to a mid, and a little further out they would switch to a fairway, and so on. At least thats how he said it went.

It depends on the shape of the line. It's easier to throw a slow turning or dead straight shot with a putter than a mid, and easier to do with a mid than a fairway, and so on. That means I'll throw beat Aviars on some 300' holes where I need to shape a tricky line, where I'll throw my Pred or Drone on some 250' holes because they're no brainer spike hyzers that I expect to hit near 100% of the time.

 

[Connor Jones]

It really is all about the shape of the shot, there are scenarios where I have a hole at my home course that plays about 260ish on the straight route. I can either throw right at it with a magic with a bit of hyzer, throw a rhyno flat, or go around everything(plays more like 310ish on that route probably) with a roc. There's a reason there are different types of discs. So you can **** around and have fun :|.

 

[garublador]

He's at the same place he was 2 years ago. Throws 300ish, hits his gaps, and makes most putts. 950ish golf. Only now he is older and has his hands full with work, raising 2 teenagers, and doesn't get to play as much as he used to much less practice.

This seemed like a cheap shot to me, and you just lost some credibility in my eyes garu.

It's not meant to be a low blow, it's an illustration of what happens when you don't focus on fundamentals. You'll plateau. I'm not sure what you're trying to get at. You want to get better, but don't want to put in the work, but want someone to coach you. You're trying to find some justification for not discing down and latch on to any opinion that jives with what you already believe to be true, but it's clear that what you believe to be true isn't getting you what you want.

You're going to have to get worse for a while before you can get better. Something has to change if you want to throw farther and it will take time to learn to do it consistently. Any coach worth listening to will tell you that. If you're worried about doing as well as you are now at tournaments and your rating then you won't be able to learn to throw farther. There's this catch 22 that you're in, but you're arguing against people who are telling you how to get out of it.

 

[JTacoma03]

So what's the argument? You're just saying that there's a slight possibility that someone might be able to learn to throw high and nose down without the use of slower discs even though a vast majority will never learn it that way? Being "technically right" is next to useless in situations like this where you're giving general advice. Technically you don't need any advice from anyone to learn to throw 500', but that's an awful reason to not try to help anyone learn.

No no no, you're taking it out of context.

Point A made by Person A: Discing down is THE way to learn X,Y,Z
Counterpoint by me: Discing down is not the only way to learn X,Y,Z and in the case of X,Y it's not even the best way.

Then you came in and flamed me. I really don't get this, do people just hate me this much? I. DISCED. DOWN. MYSELF. Jesus H Christ people, I'm a proponent of discing down! My stance is just that it's taken on this cult following where you MUST do it if you want to get better, and I'm simply just saying it's not true and there are other tools to be utilized as well.

Anybody who I've taught to play can tell you I encourage them to start with mids and putters, and work up to drivers. I'd really like to stop having the same three arguments with people...but I can't just sit and watch every newbie on this site get pounded with "DISC DOWN FOR ACCEPTANCE". This is supposed to be an open forum of disc golf ideas, but it's turning into a really narrow scope of threads.

Now let's just wait for Tacoma to name drop some more.

BeaverSchultzHowardGreenwellVoakesSalazHosfeldClimoKorverWolfeMcDanielWisecupJenkinsFeldbergReadingAnthonLocastroMcBethUlibarriWysockiStanhopeBrinsterSchusterickSchwebergerWigginsGurthieNyboCrabtreeKajiyamaOrumKallstromSextonLizotteMcReeTannockMyersOatesMelaMcClellanMoserBrownShiveDossPierceMcCabeKingToddKolingLeiviskaOwensArlynBennettHereenHorneJohansenKrahnSchickSmith

Anything else for me troll?