Is there a reason that the PDGA does not follow rules?

[chris deitzel]

I just think that there are ways to grow the pro field. And to do so you need to let these 970 rated players believe that they have a chance of at least getting $10 back at the end of the weekend. By only paying the top 35 -45%, we are alienating a lot of good players who feel that they have no chance to cash. Just think of how many people might step up and play pro, or play these NT events if they had some sort of hope that they might just play well enough to cash. I think we would see a lot more people interested in playing these events.

Maybe not?? Maybe I'm way off. I just think we need to find a way to encourage pro participation and to get lots more of these higher rated ams to test the pro waters. I'd like to see these PDGA events get to the point where we don't have am divisions at NT events or A tier events.

 

[#19325]

I have now played in 5 PDGA Pro World Championships. WI & NC chose to do the pool splits. MI, KC, & IN randomly grouped all players. WI was the only one of the 5 that did not use tee times for the 1st MPO round.

As a pro rated anywhere from 967 to 995 at the times of those events the more enjoyable ones have been the random 1st round tee times. I was able to play with some fun players and watch some unbelievable shots. It really adds some value to the lower rated pros that play the event. This year I was grouped in the B Pool with all the lower rated players and it was Alpha order. I played with another local Pro from here and we were one player from having another local. He was on the card right in front of us. That was probably my last Worlds until Masters for me. I can stay home and play many local events with players of the same ability the 1st round.

 

[Scoot_er]

I just think that there are ways to grow the pro field. And to do so you need to let these 970 rated players believe that they have a chance of at least getting $10 back at the end of the weekend. By only paying the top 35 -45%, we are alienating a lot of good players who feel that they have no chance to cash. Just think of how many people might step up and play pro, or play these NT events if they had some sort of hope that they might just play well enough to cash. I think we would see a lot more people interested in playing these events.

Maybe not?? Maybe I'm way off. I just think we need to find a way to encourage pro participation and to get lots more of these higher rated ams to test the pro waters. I'd like to see these PDGA events get to the point where we don't have am divisions at NT events or A tier events.

This system makes more sense now that AMs can receive merch instead of cash. What would you suggest for the events that already fill? Keep the payout the same or maybe even reduce the % payed??

 

[DiscJunkie]

Judging by the amount of bitching which was reportedly emanating from the 2008 world champion and current BoD member because the supergroup gallery was so distracting him during the first round of Pro Worlds on Tuesday at Renaissance Park, I suspect that this issue may come up for debate at the Fall Summit of Board of Directors. I'm sure they will weigh the benefits of live discgolfplanet.tv coverage and broadcasting a group of players who hundreds if not thousands of folks will want to tune into watch, and in doing so, draw them in for the rest of the week's coverage, over the prima donna needs suffered by the sport's biggest whiner.

We shall see.

This strikes me as petty and selfish. I spent a good bit of money to travel to Charlotte to see the Worlds, since it was only 4 hours away. Got there on Wednesday and was fairly unhappy with how the galleries were treated. I understand that the players want to be free from distractions; but if you are complaining becasue of big galleries, then you fail to understand the economics of any sport.
I am not blaming anyone for the poor viewing during the tournament, but I would like for course designers to design courses that are more friendly for on-site viewing.
End Rant.

 

[Jay Dub]

The lower rated pro players that donate to tournaments more than they cash should be rewarded as much as possible. I would think one easy way to do that is to allow them the chance to play with top rated players. Random draw for the 1st round gives them that chance.

 

[biscoe]

This system makes more sense now that AMs can receive merch instead of cash. What would you suggest for the events that already fill? Keep the payout the same or maybe even reduce the % payed??

allow td's to pay out however they please as long as the method is advertised. anywhere from winner take all to 100% of the field. most would stick with the current tables but it would allow others to get a feel for what can be successful.

i used to believe that deeper payout was the way to go but i'm not sure i still think that.

 

[biscoe]

The lower rated pro players that donate to tournaments more than they cash should be rewarded as much as possible. I would think one easy way to do that is to allow them the chance to play with top rated players. Random draw for the 1st round gives them that chance.

yep... until the (nonexistent) golden sponsor goose that lays the golden egg shows up these guys are the ones paying the way.

 

[Jay Dub]

yep... until the (nonexistent) golden sponsor goose that lays the golden egg shows up these guys are the ones paying the way.

That's been 5 years away since I started playing in '87. :\

 

[Scoot_er]

I have now played in 5 PDGA Pro World Championships. WI & NC chose to do the pool splits. MI, KC, & IN randomly grouped all players. WI was the only one of the 5 that did not use tee times for the 1st MPO round.

As a pro rated anywhere from 967 to 995 at the times of those events the more enjoyable ones have been the random 1st round tee times. I was able to play with some fun players and watch some unbelievable shots. It really adds some value to the lower rated pros that play the event. This year I was grouped in the B Pool with all the lower rated players and it was Alpha order. I played with another local Pro from here and we were one player from having another local. He was on the card right in front of us. That was probably my last Worlds until Masters for me. I can stay home and play many local events with players of the same ability the 1st round.

How did you feel about playing with the same people the 1st and 2nd round regardless of score? I personally was upset considering I had a chance to be on the top card with my 1st round score and then shot HORRIBLE the 2nd round in the wind.

 

[_MTL_]

I agree with Brett regarding experience.

In Augusta in 06 I played with Climo in round 1 and then in Highbridge in 07, I played with Schultz in rounds 1 and 2 (same groups in round 2).

It really made those worlds stand out.

For the most part the top players want to be spread out in round 1.

 

[_MTL_]

How did you feel about playing with the same people the 1st and 2nd round regardless of score? I personally was upset considering I had a chance to be on the top card with my 1st round score and then shot HORRIBLE the 2nd round in the wind.

I think that decision at PW2007 was a bad one.

The argument of "ball golf does it" doesn't hold weight here. The reason ball golf does it is so each player gets an AM and a PM starting time. Dew and other things affect play.

Since we do shotgun starts, it really was pointless.

 

[Scoot_er]

I think that decision at PW2007 was a bad one.

The argument of "ball golf does it" doesn't hold weight here. The reason ball golf does it is so each player gets an AM and a PM starting time. Dew and other things affect play.

Since we do shotgun starts, it really was pointless.

I want to say I played with JJ those rounds......i know for a fact I beat a guy by 15 the 1st round and then lost to him in the 2nd.

So where is US Masters MTL? Hopefully not Huntsville, TX :doh:

 

[_MTL_]

So where is US Masters MTL? Hopefully not Huntsville, TX :doh:

Burlington, NC

 

[#19325]

How did you feel about playing with the same people the 1st and 2nd round regardless of score? I personally was upset considering I had a chance to be on the top card with my 1st round score and then shot HORRIBLE the 2nd round in the wind.

I was not a fan of that either.

A buddy that I traveled with this year shot a solid round at Renny day 1 of 63. He had the same score as McCabe, Criss, Sonderfan, Kinkel, (1000+ rated players). I told him he got cheated out of playing with some really good players. He never got that chance the rest of the week as day 2 didn't go as good. It did leave a bad taste in his mouth. He even said it felt like he was playing a totally different event as the other pros.

 

[bschick]

This pisses me off so much that it almost makes me want to start a lawsuit against the PDGA. Perhaps all members should have their money refunded since it is apparent that the PDGA does not care about their own rules?

Take it easy Deitzel....bad day!?

I was actually put in one of the "super groups" this past weekend and I have mixed feelings about them. I would say I agree with Deitzel on a lot of things, but there is certainly some good things that come from them.

There were some big galleries out on the course for the first round which I can never remember seeing in past years. I believe there was live scoring going on for the first time in the first round which is great for those who are far away. Usually that is me watching the live scoring and I love it! The live tweets are amazing and you almost feel as if you are there.

On the other hand, I do feel for the lower rated players who hope to get that one chance to play with a "Super Pro". I remember the first time I got grouped with Climo....I don't remember much about my round, but it was a blast watching him throw and I talked about it for weeks.

I also feel for the top rated pros who didn't get selected to play in that group. I know there are much better players than me who could have been selected and they were not happy about it. Honestly, I would have rather played with a mixed group as the top cards are typically not as relaxed. There is a lot of whining and complaining about every little thing that is not perfect......it starts to bring you down unless you can block it out!

All in all, the players are playing the course and the best players are going to come out on top as they typically do. I would say to send a nice note to the TD's, ask them if they would reconsider for the reasons you have and then thank them for sacrificing weeks of work and hundreds of hours so others can have fun. We all can find something to complain about, let's not run off the TD's who do this year after year over petty things. Let's talk about the thousands of dollars that were raised for the Leukemia Society!

 

[Hampstead]

As a spectator, I like the idea of a super group as it makes it easier to see some of the best players without wandering all over the course trying to find (fill in the blank top pro). As a player I can appreciate wanting to be able to play with some of the better players and not get stuck on some "misc. unknowns" card.

Ultimately, should the PDGA cater more to the players or the spectators in the bigger tournaments?

Btw, nice job this weekend, Brad. Ricky was on fire, what could you do?

 

[patdb23]

Following the lead card is enjoyable and getting the live tweets and scoring is awesome. I could see as a spectator the benefit of having a preset stacked card to kick things of in the beginning. But as a player, it seems very discouraging. Some of the great stories I hear is about players that recently moved up to Open and had a chance to play with one of the Elites. It seems like it would be very rewarding to play alongside with these players and attract players to play in the Open division. Heck, I would play in more Open events if I knew I had a chance to play with a top elite pro.

But the problem is not just at the Pro level. I've seen it happen in the Am field. Local top players are carded together, where as out of town players grouped together. Or the son of a TD gets to choose his card, choosing the top rated players of the event and his buddies. Whereas the TD assigns a person they don't like to a mixed group of other divisions.

So, I think TDs should abide by 1.6 of the Competition manual. I think 1.6B(2) is the fairest way to go. I've also seen TDs who also insure that a local player is on each card first round to help provide direction to tournament layout holes.

 

[_MTL_]

I was not a fan of that either.

A buddy that I traveled with this year shot a solid round at Renny day 1 of 63. He had the same score as McCabe, Criss, Sonderfan, Kinkel, (1000+ rated players). I told him he got cheated out of playing with some really good players. He never got that chance the rest of the week as day 2 didn't go as good. It did leave a bad taste in his mouth. He even said it felt like he was playing a totally different event as the other pros.

Well, there is an issue here.

The issue is what happened in Charlotte in 1997. Basically, they mixed the pools. And one pool had to play winthrop in the nasty pouring rain and wind while the other pool was playing Kilbourne - literally 30 miles north - in the sunshine. No one in the bad draw finished top 10.

No one rated outside of like the top 40 has ever won, so to keep the integrity of the title, they have to make sure the top 40 play at the same time all the time.

Sadly, those outside the top 40 lose out.

Without a doubt the best solution was the tee times w/out super groups where everyone was pretty much guaranteed to play with someone really good round 1. After that, the pools were assigned.

Why they decided to stay in pools after tee times on day 1 is beyond me. I was pretty verbal about that not being a good decision.

 

[Cgkdisc]

I expressly indicated from the first schedule that the first day was just MPO at Renny. I think they decided to go with two pools so there wasn't a shuffle every day and players would know where to go the next round without having to check where their score fell the first day. It will be different next year at Lemon Lake with your pool determined after the first day because everyone goes to the same place on the second day so it's not critical to know in advance which course you play.

 

[mj20300]

Take it easy Deitzel....bad day!?

I was actually put in one of the "super groups" this past weekend and I have mixed feelings about them. I would say I agree with Deitzel on a lot of things, but there is certainly some good things that come from them.

There were some big galleries out on the course for the first round which I can never remember seeing in past years. I believe there was live scoring going on for the first time in the first round which is great for those who are far away. Usually that is me watching the live scoring and I love it! The live tweets are amazing and you almost feel as if you are there.

On the other hand, I do feel for the lower rated players who hope to get that one chance to play with a "Super Pro". I remember the first time I got grouped with Climo....I don't remember much about my round, but it was a blast watching him throw and I talked about it for weeks.

I also feel for the top rated pros who didn't get selected to play in that group. I know there are much better players than me who could have been selected and they were not happy about it. Honestly, I would have rather played with a mixed group as the top cards are typically not as relaxed. There is a lot of whining and complaining about every little thing that is not perfect......it starts to bring you down unless you can block it out!

All in all, the players are playing the course and the best players are going to come out on top as they typically do. I would say to send a nice note to the TD's, ask them if they would reconsider for the reasons you have and then thank them for sacrificing weeks of work and hundreds of hours so others can have fun. We all can find something to complain about, let's not run off the TD's who do this year after year over petty things. Let's talk about the thousands of dollars that were raised for the Leukemia Society!

i agree with brad on this one!!!!