zontar
Double Eagle Member
sounds to me like she's kicking a$$ because she putts 86%, not because she's transitioned.
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Laura Nagtegaal 2019 Amateur World Champion FA40
- Thread starter DiscFifty
- Start date
gingerandhoney
Birdie Member
Life is a slippery slope, yes, but we're not here for philosophy 101.
People are arguing that a transgender woman should not play in gender-protected divisions for instance because they supposedly have broader shoulders.
Let's assume mine are 1'8" wide, and you state that a transgender woman's shoulder should be no wider than 1'7", then you would disqualify me from playing in gender-protected divisions, but as a result, you would also need to disqualify a cisgender woman whose shoulders are 1'8" wide as well. That rule would need to either go for all, or none. You can't cherry pick which people among a gorup it applies to and which not. And then, you're always dealing with those openly transgender women.
What about those who are not open about it? How do you police them?
Do you know if there are any?
If so, have they won anything noteworthy?
Are their physical traits such that they would stand out, and would they hold certain physical advantages?
In your (plural, not you personally) imagination, transgender women are 6ft tall, weigh 200lb, have 6'4" wingspan, have sixpacks, wear men's XL gloves, etc...
What if the next transgender woman you meet is tinier than Paige Pierce is?!?!
People are arguing that a transgender woman should not play in gender-protected divisions for instance because they supposedly have broader shoulders.
Let's assume mine are 1'8" wide, and you state that a transgender woman's shoulder should be no wider than 1'7", then you would disqualify me from playing in gender-protected divisions, but as a result, you would also need to disqualify a cisgender woman whose shoulders are 1'8" wide as well. That rule would need to either go for all, or none. You can't cherry pick which people among a gorup it applies to and which not. And then, you're always dealing with those openly transgender women.
What about those who are not open about it? How do you police them?
Do you know if there are any?
If so, have they won anything noteworthy?
Are their physical traits such that they would stand out, and would they hold certain physical advantages?
In your (plural, not you personally) imagination, transgender women are 6ft tall, weigh 200lb, have 6'4" wingspan, have sixpacks, wear men's XL gloves, etc...
What if the next transgender woman you meet is tinier than Paige Pierce is?!?!
Hampstead
* Ace Member *
I find it interesting that some folks need to have some imaginary needle moved for them personally as though their opinion is what ultimately decides these things.
gingerandhoney
Birdie Member
See https://www.pdga.com/player/44969/history
In the last 12 months before transitioning, I averaged 900.
I've averaged 880 since I started transitioning (late aug '16).
I've averaged 877 since I started taking hormones (14dec17).
gingerandhoney
Birdie Member
Thank you Dave, for that. It's been my argument all along.
The 'average x vs average y holds up as long as you do not look at specific individuals.
That's the comfort AND the danger of looking at average values.
The testosterone dropping - at least according to the ones who actually researched it, and especially the ones making these rules - all say that it outwieghs the possible physical advantages.
Only since people specifically started hammering down topics like shoulder, limb, etc, after the 'testosterone dropping is crucial', I started pointing out the invalid logic behind looking at a certain specific physical trait, by pointing out that in the tiniest of control groups (women's FA40 semi-finals) the theory in itself doesn't hold up.
Knowing full well, that I am not an average man, nor an average woman, nor an average transgender woman. I am Laura, and I beat the competition at AmWorlds.
You (plural) say that is because I am a transgender woman, and that I have male advantages.
I say that I played better than my competition (most notably my putting).
gingerandhoney
Birdie Member
FYI: I turned Pro today.
I accepted my payout of eur20 (about $22).
First time I ever got on the good side of the payout line (I never declined cash).
I accepted my payout of eur20 (about $22).
First time I ever got on the good side of the payout line (I never declined cash).
GingerandHoney had a really long post I didn't read after the really long post Dave wrote that I didn't read. I assumed the one really long post was in answer the the other really long post. :shrugs:
Kind of, it was about half an answer. Honestly I don't care anyway. Everyone is acting like this one transisitioned person is an expert on all things trans. It's ridiculous really.
Halcón
Free At Last
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2012
- Messages
- 12,038
There are actually three trans women participating in this thread. And your "everyone" is like 5 people. Just saying.
How are there 3 trans women on a disc golf forum?
Halcón
Free At Last
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2012
- Messages
- 12,038
I was going to ask this weeks ago, but the little angel on my shoulder said I shouldn't.
I mean I figure she knows more about it from personal experience than me. Or you. Or Dave. :|
About all a thread like this is good for is getting her first-hand experience. The rest of this stuff is not my area of expertise. So there is a study that says men throw things farther and more accurately than women. OK. What does that mean as it related to this thread? I don't know. Laura can't go win FPO now, she's not good enough. So the fact that she should have a biological advantage at throwing things means...what?
When I started working where I work now we had a mountain of policies because they had gone through every scenario and created a policy that would keep someone from exploiting any loophole that might exist to get away with something that was using a resource in a way that wasn't the intended use. In theory it kept thing "fair." In practice I called it "Keep asking questions until you found a reason to tell them 'no'". In the effort to keep things fair, they created a ridiculous bureaucratic maze that excluded everyone whose needs did not fit the vary narrow definition we created of who we were going to serve. The maze itself managed to exclude people who DID fit the definition of who were were going to serve, the cheese wasn't tasty enough to endure the maze.
When I got promoted I dismantled the maze, got rid of the policies and let people use the resources the way they needed to. Nothing bad happened. None of the doomsday "People are going to overwhelm us with X, Y or Z" scenarios ever came true. All that stuff that people spent a lot of time and energy fearing never happened.
So I'm over it. I'm not afraid of Laura. She's just somebody frolfing. If she wasn't open about being transgender, very few people would know. IMO the fear of Laura and people like her will end up being a lot worse for us than anything Laura could actually do.
Because transgendered people exist and they do stuff. Some of them frolf. Some of them transitioned in a time when society in general was less accepting so they don't announce or advertise their story. Laura is lucky in a way that she feels like she can be open about it. Others might not feel that way, which says more about us than them.
So, yeah. We have been talking to transgender females on this message board for years. Surprised? You shouldn't be.
But you read all that **** Dave posted? Hypocrite. :|
I have no fears of lgbtq people. The only question here is fairness. Is it fair for natural born females if transitioned females are competing against them? Is it fair for transitioned females if they are told that they can't compete?
I get it. Laura was always a female in her heart and in her mind and she needed her body to reflect that as much as our current medical science can allow. The truth of the matter is that if you are born male you will never be 100% physically female. Not with our current level of medical technology. Because of this, there will always be questions about fairness from somebody. And, the higher up the competitive ladder Laura goes, the louder those voices will be.
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