Halcón
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I don't know what "wrongthink" is, but there is definitely truth here. Look at what's happening to Mario Lopez.
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Laura Nagtegaal 2019 Amateur World Champion FA40
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I don't know what "wrongthink" is, but there is definitely truth here. Look at what's happening to Mario Lopez.
As a trans female Disc Golfer I feel that all divisions should be mixed and based off rating instead of gender and PDGA Rating is a genderless numbering system to begin with. A 950 FPO round is scored no differently than an MPO 950 round, so why not divide divisions based on rating example 750-850 850-950 950+? That being said if an individual meets the PDGA requirements for protected divisions a win is a win. The physical "advantages" of a trans Female are largely nullified by Hormones I've lost quite a percentage on muscle mass after taking hormones for 3 years despite being more active and working out more. If we are taking this to a purely physical standpoint lets just look at the top 10 DGWT standings. Paul McBeth is THE shortest and among the lightest on the list so he has no "advantages" over his fellow MPO competitors but he sits at number One. Now ask yourself if this sport is strictly based off physique how does this happen? I'd argue Paul's Advantage strictly is his devotion to the game. He has developed one of the strongest mental games is the sport. He knows when to play safe or be aggressive and overall is just the smartest golfer on the course on any given day. He is dedicated years to prefect his form and anyone who decides to do that deserves to be on top of their sport regardless of if you are a fan or not. Not sure if linking is allowed here but check out Semena Castor a mid distance Olympic champion or Michael Phelps or freaking Shaq for that matter. Physical advantages are something that exist within sports already and are not insurmountable by dedication to improving your game. People want an excuse as to why they lose it's always easy to say "He's taller than me" "She run's to fast" "She's built like a man"(a common one for Serena Williams) but these athletes are at the top of their sport because of dedication to their sport, always pushing themselves and their limits. Paige Pierce is also a prime example no body claims she has a physical advantage over her FPO counterparts when she crushes the division by 20 strokes they comment on her form her dedication to the sport and her drive to be the best. It only becomes a thing when people want an excuse or they have a bias of the way "things should be" So long story short Mix all divisions and base it solely on skill level instead of what someone has between their legs because that argument is old and outdated. Trans People are here to stay and they deserve a place in whatever sport they love.
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Double Eagle Member
Nobody is making that argument.
Also even "if" nobody is saying it directly what else could the opposing argument be about?
There is physical advantages in disc golf, but this primarily only affects power/distance potential imop. The ape index/wing span athlete will have a natural advantage. Other body types will have to work harder, longer to achieve similar results.
Disclaimer: The following is a bit delicate in nature, I mean no disrespect to any current players male or female.
It is no secret the MPO side of the sport is transitioning to a longer, slender build without the muscle mass needed in other pro sports. How much of that body type in respect to athletic performance in disc golf, would be affected by a gender transition to female? Most people ignorant to the facts (myself included) would guess the player would have most if not all if their disc golf skills intact. It would be interesting to know the facts in this scenario.
Disclaimer: The following is a bit delicate in nature, I mean no disrespect to any current players male or female.
It is no secret the MPO side of the sport is transitioning to a longer, slender build without the muscle mass needed in other pro sports. How much of that body type in respect to athletic performance in disc golf, would be affected by a gender transition to female? Most people ignorant to the facts (myself included) would guess the player would have most if not all if their disc golf skills intact. It would be interesting to know the facts in this scenario.
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Double Eagle Member
Spending 39 out of 40 years presenting as a male.
If you're saying "what took you so long?" then perhaps that is a valid point for discussion. hmmm...
September, 1994, actually. It hasn't ended, yet.
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I agree with the first part of this for sure but to an extent. Paul obviously proves this wrong but he is really the outlier. However Kevin Jones has been killing it this year too. Also double G isn't your Eagle/Simon/Ricky looking player either but is doing great. Seppo comes to mind too. But it does seem to be trending this direction for sure. With that being said I don't want to ruffle any feathers here but if the PDGA has guidelines and they're followed a win is a win correct? I mean I love the NFL but it's OK to pump these guys up on synthetic heroin to play the next game but suspend them for smoking weed. The world is ever evolving and moving forward. Some of us need to catch up IMO. Myself included. But everyone should be able to play disc golf and have fun. Nobody here is signing a Mcbeth deal, we do it for fun. All of us.
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Jsmithey, I agree with most things in your post.
Also agree that trans-gender people are here to stay and we must respect them (you) and their devotion to DG.
Trans-genders in gender-separated sports is a topic that will get a lot more attention in the months and years to come.
Let's hope that all sides can discuss it rationally (as you have) and reach a solution that is considered and nuanced and not just surrender to those that shout the loudest.
Also agree that trans-gender people are here to stay and we must respect them (you) and their devotion to DG.
Trans-genders in gender-separated sports is a topic that will get a lot more attention in the months and years to come.
Let's hope that all sides can discuss it rationally (as you have) and reach a solution that is considered and nuanced and not just surrender to those that shout the loudest.
TDs have the option to create tournaments with ratings based divisions only, but it's not a very popular format for some reason. I played in one a while back and it was a blast. Playing with both male, female, young and old. The PDGA definitely needs to push this more often to TDs.
I agree that the PDGA offers them, and they are fun. I've played in them, and run one every year, of a sorts---it's a 4-man team play event with a team ratings cap, so women can and do fill team spots exactly the same as a same-rated man would.
I'm not so sure how the PDGA pushes them, other than publicize the option.
TDs will do what players want. Or, what the TDs believe that most players want. After all, if we're going to all the trouble to run a tournament, we want people to come.
There are a few drawbacks to ratings-based events, which also touch on the broader discussion here:
The Pro/Am divide. If the highest division, with unlimited divisions, is "pro", then Ams of that rating are forced to play pro. They will likely decide to skip the event, instead. Meanwhile, women are pretty much precluded from playing pro, because few or none will meet the criteria. The better female players may skip it, as well.
Division stability. Players near a dividing line will bounce back and forth between different divisions, from event to event. This week you're at the top of one division, next week you're bumped up and at the bottom of another. Many players like categorizing themselves as a certain division, for a certain period of time.
Social considerations. The big one. Many older folks like playing with other people their age. Teenagers may too, or older players may not want to play with teens. Women may be more comfortable playing without men---something they may not get much opportunity to do, outside of tournaments. After all, you have to spend an entire weekend with your division. Players to whom these considerations are important, may not show.
Top of the heap. Protected divisions (age or gender) exist, in part, because of natural limitations on athleticism in those groups. It has nothing to do with the gifted physical attributes certain individuals may have; players over 50, for example, on average are much less athletic than 25-year-olds, and the best >50 can't compete with the best <40. Same thing with females. There's more satisfaction in finishing first among your peers in one of these groups, than finishing first among people rated less than 900.
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These are not insurmountable, and it would be great to see more ratings-based events as an option, and a refreshing change. But they are considerations when doing so.
Tournament attendance is voluntary, and the PDGA is a member-run organization, so the player preferences will affect the decisions of TDs and the organization.
Trans people come out at different times in life usually driven by the pressures around them. There are young children with more "liberal" parents coming out at very young ages because they feel like nothing is wrong with it since their parents are supportive. And if they begin transition before puberty their bodies will develop as a female assigned at birth in regards to frame size etc.
There are people like me who dont come out until early adulthood because of the opposite. i was raised in a southern baptist household where i was convinced that my desire to be a woman was a sin and a temptation from the devil itself. it wasnt until i was an independent adult that i even felt safe considering the notion of transition. it wasnt till i was on the verge of suicide that i decided i had to in order to be happy.
And in reguards to people who come out later in life I'm sure they face similar pressures whether it be from family members, co workers or bosses, or even themselves.trans people respond to these factors in different ways just the same as cisgender folks.
So to expect every trans person to come out at the same time early in life is just plain unreasonable. They may be afraid their parents would beat them or be disowned, their boss may fire them, their husband/wife may leave them. There are many factors that lead to when a trans person feels its their time to come out and when they can finally accept themselves and everyone is different.
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Double Eagle Member
I get what your saying. I'm making the argument if it is fair or not. Laura has 39 years of being a male under her belt.
Do you think that is fair to the other 17 golfers in that group?
Hampstead
* Ace Member *
I thought it has been well established that life isn't fair.
Halcón
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Then you have no problem with doping?
Hampstead
* Ace Member *
Guidelines have been established and Laura played by the rules. Nothing unfair about that.
As for doping, guidelines have been established and if you violate those and get caught, there are potential penalties. Beyond that, it's a complicated subject. Are we talking about doping in disc golf? What substance specifically? Sports in general? What substances and what benefits do those substances have?
People have been trying to gain a competitive edge for as long as people have been competing.
Halcón
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That the guidelines are fair or not is highly debatable, and as I opined earlier, there will come a time when trans women will not be able to compete with women.
But yes, someone playing by the rules is, by definition, fair, no matter what one believes about the rules themselves.
100% Truth.
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